Very interesting point of view, considering how Baron Harkonnen was depicted in Dune. I mean, was the life in Empire better or worse after he took power? Did life of common citizen changed much?
My view was that he basically just replaced Emperor by himself and most of things was still the same. He even married the princess just for pretence.
My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct human progress and evolution if we would have ability to see the future. Both Paul and Leto II have such ability and they tried to do it with mediocre success. Tides of history were largely operating by forces they could not change but slightly skew.
My though was that they were both just trying to do good for the mankind, kind of succeeded, but not much - Leto was by intention so bad that when he finally fall - people scattered through galaxy with those new ships that did not need spice.
Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?
The fremen jihad killed 61 billion people across the empire, including the sterilization of 90 whole planets, per details in Dune Messiah (quoting from a wiki, I don't have this kind of memory). It may be that life in the empire after this was over returned more or less to the same as what was there before, for those that survived - though I don't think the books go into any significant detail. Life on Dune was definitely better than it had been under the Harkonnens, but this is not necessarily true across the empire.
> Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe?
I think this is somewhat the general idea, but more specific. His main message is that charismatic leaders, even the ones with the best of intentions as Paul certainly was (and Leto II, though in a more complex way), are extremely dangerous and should not be trusted or followed. The empire overall would have been an unquestionably better place if Paul had been killed in the desert (except that perhaps the Bene Gesserit would have led people in an even worse direction if their plans had succeeded at the time). Arrakis itself would have been in a better shape if the fremen had risen up and overthrown their oppressors, but had otherwise stopped at that.
It may be because I have read this like 20 years ago but I remember something in a sense of accomplishment from Leto II when he was killed. Like: there is no way of stopping it now - the spread of humanity in the universe.
So according to me first book was a bit dark:
- Paul accomplishing his goal but failing ultimatively - per what you are saying - starting the jihad
- In the second he is killed but we have his children - so again a bit dark but with hope.
- In the third we have - making a new empire and change from desert to a green planet - so again hope for something better coming even if it is a but slow (god-emperor living for hundreds of years)
- Then we have really two strange books but last one, at least last written by Herbert, ends with one character asking other one if the purpose of all those events is understood, and the second chacter realizes this purpose with kind of awe.
So to me in overall Dune was a positive tale. according to you it is just grim sentence: do not fall for the words of false prophet.
Imho if this would be just it, would be little sad.
But maybe I should read them again maybe after so many years, the reception will be different.
I think your memory is mostly right. Leto II essentially wanted to instill into humanity this lesson, do not fall for the words of the prophet, permanently: his reign would forever be remembered as the hell that this can lead to. And yes, he was satisfied with being killed, as this was the goal of his plan as well: torture humanity for a thousand years, teaching them a lesson they will never forget (especially in the universe of Dune, where genetic memory is a thing), and then be defeated by them, teaching also that no evil is too big to overcome. Note that this is about any prophet, false or true. Both Paul and Leto II were true prophets, but this made them no less dangerous.
But Paul is exactly the failed version of Leto II. Paul saw the option of doing what his son did, but didn't have the courage to do it. He instead chose to believe that he can become the benevolent dictator that would uplift humanity through his strong moral core, and instead brought only needless suffering to the galaxy and to all those around him.
The good future that Leto II fought for is one where every human is truly unique and free, spreading in a thousand distinct directions, impossible to predict for anyone (which also implies that they are impossible to lead as an overall group, as they will never again accept to follow someone else).
> Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?
I think the "moral" of Dune shifts pretty dramatically between Messiah and Children. Dune and Messiah are essentially a warning about charismatic leaders reshaping the world in their eyes, abusing religion and faith to do so, and harming all humanity in the process whilst losing their own. Paul Atreides is not a desert mouse, but a sandworm that consumes all in his path. This isn't even subtext, it's basically stated explicitly both in the text and in later writing/talks by Herbert himself.
In the later books I think it shifts a bit to a story that one must lose their humanity in order to save it, and it's important that Leto is not Paul.
My view was that Herbert was trying to show how we could try to direct human progress and evolution if we would have ability to see the future. Both Paul and Leto II have such ability and they tried to do it with mediocre success. Tides of history were largely operating by forces they could not change but slightly skew.
My though was that they were both just trying to do good for the mankind, kind of succeeded, but not much - Leto was by intention so bad that when he finally fall - people scattered through galaxy with those new ships that did not need spice.
Was not this the real moral of the story? Resist stagnant empire and explore the universe? Basically the same as Foundation that is book from the same era?