Could you share your configuration? (Mostly interested in Network) I still see some noticeable latency if I stream from my PC through wifi to steam deck which is connected to a TV. At one point I just dropped the idea as I wanted to actually play the game instead of tinkering for too long.
I play on the Steam Deck directly rather than on a TV, which might be part of it. In the past, I've had noticeable input lag with some 4K TVs even when playing a Switch directly docked into it, so it might be worth ruling the TV itself out as a potential source of error (e.g. by seeing if the same input is noticeable from the PC to the Steam Deck directly, or if you use something hooked up to the TV directly).
In terms of the wifi itself, I have two mesh routers in the house, one directly connected to the modem in the living room, and the other upstairs in my office, with the desktop plugged into it via ethernet. I'm lucky enough to be in an area with gigabit fiber, which made it seem worthwhile to invest in a good mesh setup, and I honestly might ended up with fairly low local latency mostly by accident from that. I've read some things that indicate that WiFi 7 might be a significant part of why this works well for me, but having never tried streaming games before having this setup, I don't have anything to compare it to.
On the software side of things, I mostly use the defaults that the AUR `sunshine` package comes preinstalled with for the server (although I'm not sure how much of that is tweaked from upstream). I don't have any ports exposed to the wider internet, and I have LAN encryption disabled, which likely reduces the overhead a bit. I'm not sure if it matters, but for the sake of completeness, but my GPU is a Radeon RX 6900 XT, and I'm running the standard Arch repo versions of of mesa, Plasma 6, and the `linux-zen` kernel (with Plasma configured to use Wayland rather than X11). On the client side, the Steam Deck is using Moonlight from the flatpak listed in the "Discover" app in desktop mode, with the resolution set to 1440p (since that what my monitor has, and I've found a lot of games lower the quality of the graphics if I lower the resolution to match my Steam Deck's native 800p) and the refresh rate set to 90 FPS, which the app then displays as converting to a bitrate of 49 Mbps. I have it set to fullscreen (since I don't really have any need to use the steam deck for other things when gaming, and it still does allow me to easily get back in to the local settings without much issue even with that set) and Vsync off, the boxes checked off for "Optimize game settings for streaming", "Capture system keyboard shortcuts", "Enable mouse control with gamepads...", "Enable HDR", and "Unlock bitrate limit" (the last of which presumably overrides the auto-computed bitrate mentioned above), as well as turning pretty much every audio setting I can off or at least to the lowest possible value since I'm pretty much always either watching TV or listening to music nowadays when playing. I left the video decoder and codecs as "automatic".
The only two things that ever seem to go wrong is that the Steam Deck sometimes seems to decide to render the on-screen keyboard below the streamed desktop rather than above it, and occasionally (maybe once every 10-12 hours of playing over several days?) the connection will start to degrade over the course of a minute or so and become unable to sustain the necessary bandwidth. The keyboard issue seems like it might be a bug in Moonlight, since I'm able to fix it by disconnecting and restarting the client itself, and the connection issue seems like it's either an issue with Sunshine or my network itself, since I can always fix it by simply disconnecting (without needing to restart Moonlight itself). The experience overall has been so good that I've almost completely stopped playing anything locally on the Deck itself (with the only exception being occasional emulation of Gameboy Color/Gameboy Advance games, which obvious don't require much in terms of hardware). I'm able to play games with much higher graphical settings than I could locally on the Deck, and the battery life is significantly improved (maybe around 6-8 hours of dedicated playing). It's such a smooth experience that I've been seriously considering upgrading to the Legion Go literally just to have a higher-res screen for this setup without having to change much (since SteamOS is supported for it nowadays; I don't have much interest in the Legion Go 2 with Windows, and the more powerful/efficient hardware wouldn't do much for me with my current setup).
[1]: I didn't have a ton of experience with mesh wifi honestly, but after some basic research I ended up buying of two of this mode (which seems to have a version of 6.1.0 from checking just now)l, and they seems to work reasonably well: TP-Link Deco BE25 Dual-Band BE5000 WiFi 7 Mesh Wi-Fi Router https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DKVKLJX3
That's CYA nonsense, up there with "Q-tips aren't for cleaning ears". (Yes, they are.) Nobody actually shuts down his laptop before chucking it in his bag.
> Nobody actually shuts down his laptop before chucking it in his bag.
I do. I had a few poor experiences with laptops accidentally turning on while in the bag between 1995 and 2010.
After the last time, in 2010, when the thing started beeping due to overheating, I started the habit of shutting down/hibernating completely instead of just closing the lid and popping it into the bag.
Laptops still occasionally do that. I'm kind of impressed that they manage to keep chugging even when the lack of airflow keeps them at >90°C for the entire time it takes for either me to notice that they turned back on, or drain their battery.
They don't, but the problem is the laptop manufacturers and/or Microsoft have fucked up the implementation sufficiently that it's no longer a safe operation.
I have opened my backpack to find it very hot because my laptop accumulated a bunch of heat in its cushioned pouch and subsequently drained all it's battery
I know more than one person who ended in the ER with a perforated eardrum because of qtips. I honestly don't understand why we haven't outlawed them yet (in countries with universal healthcare, in the US you could just have a more expensive health insurance if you choose to use them).
It is not nonsense. I had my laptop turning on from sleep mode inside my bag and getting really hot, because of idiotic Windows 7 settings back then, which turned the device on, when networks changed. It is just ridiculous. Probably still in there that default. Since that day, I always shutdown my device completely.
Don't conclude from your own carelessness to others. Even just one person shutting down their laptop will instantly disprove your claim, that "nobody does XYZ". So you will basically almost always be wrong with such a statement/claim.
You are completely missing the point of the original comment. Why is my computer unusable for X minutes when I didn't expect that and perhaps, needed some critical work done?
If only Apple allowed to run VMs and other software like Linux on their iPads, it would be a game-changer. Right now, the iPads are mostly limited to media production tools + everything else you could get in an Android tablet, so it's pretty pointless for a user like me
If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming?
Wouldn’t there actually be some popular Linux tablets out there? (I am aware that there are a couple of niche options)
Touch screen interfaces are just not good for programming. Apple already brought all of the useful parts of the iPad to the Mac when they switched to the m series SOCs. Fanless design, long battery life, instant sleep/wake.
An iPad running macOS has some niche appeal for people who want to travel light but I really don’t see it being a game changer at all.
> If the tablet form factor was really a game changer for software development, wouldn’t the surface line and high end android tablets be more popular for programming?
Not necessarily. The surface line has several hardware fumbles (especially regarding power budgets/efficiency). The A & M series chips could easily whip up most of their competition in the low power (>10 watt) segment, if Apple wanted. AMD and Intel push for high performance at 15-28watts on portables, which is too high for thin tablets.
For maximum contrast: x86 tablets have fans. M1/m2 laptops can be fanless.
(This isn’t to say it’s impossible but rather no company with deep enough pockets cares enough.)
I don’t think I’ve heard people complain about the surface performance, power usage, or battery life in a long time. Probably not since the surface pro 3, around the time that intel was making haswell.
Also the Surface Pro 7 was fanless with x86 processors, plus the small one (surface go, I think) is fanless and x86 but does have performance issues.
I used an iPad+ssh for programming with a detached Bluetooth keyboard for a while. It was great.
It was much lighter than what I have now, a 2-in-1 with a fold-back keyboard. This opened up possibilities like using a car suction cup mount and a lap desk to get a slightly taller computer while on the couch. Or a lightweight armature.
Plus, vertical orientation on a “laptop” felt really novel and nice. My 2-in-1 can be vertical, but it is clearly an afterthought. The iPad ~4:3 aspect ratio is much nicer for vertical use, and there’s something about the pixel alignment or maybe the screen viewing angles… my laptop screen doesn’t work quite as well sideways.
I switched because I missed i3wm mostly, and generally all of the local Linux software. But no complaints about the hardware.
I agree regarding the touch interface, but look at the steam deck example, connect it to some monitors and peripherals using Type-C and you have a computing monster that you can use for everything. And having the portability + other programs like final cut and w/e accessible right at your fingers is amazing!
If they could combine iPadOS and macOS, and have some clever way to flick between the iPad UI and the mac one, it would be an incredible device
Plug it into a usb-c dock connected to a screen/keyboard/mouse and it's a Mac, put it on the little stand with the magic keyboard and it's a MacBook, hold it in your hand and it's an iPad
Have we forgotten the cautionary tale of Steve Ballmer's Windows Phone boondoggle already? Ballmer wanted to use the same codebase for desktops, laptops, phones and tablets.
It goes back further than that too. Microsoft bought the Sidekick and squandered their lead by bringing it onto the Microsoft platform.
I'm reminded of this quote: "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds."
Laptops and tablets are different devices. We should stop trying to merge them. Every time we do, we end up with something that is a worse version of both things. Tablets need a battery. If the display is detachable, then that creates a weight problem for the laptop. The tablet keyboard is worse than any laptop keyboard.
I said over a decade ago I thought Apple was smart to just have a tablet OS as well as OSX. Don't spend 3 years trying to merge those things. It's a waste of time and gains you nothing. Even the tablet and phone OSs are somewhat distinct (but a lot less so than with OSX).
I always thought Eric Schmidt (at the time) did the right thing with ChromeOS and Android too. There were always questions from people seeking faux "consistency" like "why have 2 OSs? Shouldn't we merge them?" Again, phones and laptops are different things. Let each OS evolve and see if one emerges as a "winner". Otherwise, leave them alone.
Chrome OS does a fairly decent job with the transition now. I used to use a Lenovo Duet at times. If you had the keyboard / touchpad attached, it would go into the usual desktop mode with floating windows. If it was just the tablet, then windows would tile. Gestures for the usual tasks. It wasn't a complicated system but it did work fairly smoothly.
And then there were the checkboxes which allowed you to extend the OS beyond Chrome OS's initial limitations. Enable Android. Enable Linux. Enable developer mode. But the user (or administrator) could ignore those checkboxes and keep the machine in a fairly locked down state.
Keep imagining a similar abilities on iPads. A seamless transition from desktop mode to touch and back again. With options allowing you to make it into more of a general purpose computer if you want. But the options can be ignored in favor of the walled garden, if that's what the user or school or corporate owners want.
Windows 8 failed because it tried to merge desktop and tablet UI paradigms.
Switching between entirely different and separate "UI personalities" could work.
I don't think the pointer vs touch UI is the main thing that people have in mind when wishing for macOS on the iPad though, instead a "proper" UNIX-style filesystem and shell, and the ability to install any software outside the app store via a package manager and without Apple's nanny reflex getting in the way.
So you're saying my Steam Deck, which has both a "game console" UI and a desktop UI mode and lets you switch between them, is somehow running two OSes? Weird argument.
I mean, their strategy was awful. They replaced the start menu for the first time with a whole-screen abomination that ruined power user workflows. They made the desktop TOO much like a tablet, it seemed like they wanted one interface for everything.
Apple is very clear about their product differentiation and would never make macOS and ipadOS exact copies. Case in point: when they brought cursor support over, they painstakingly engineered it to work differently and snap to objects on the screen. I think if they did OP's suggestion and had a macOS screen show up when an iPad is connected to peripherals it would actually work out well.
Easy porting would make everything slower. People would stop targeting Apple hardware and the machines would be running everything in emulation. Making porting difficult is a strategy. It requires publishers to make the leap and when they do they take full advantage of the hardware.
As much as I'd like to see it being more open, a lot of people seem concerned about security and are happy with the current state of iOS/iPadOs and not having to deal with troubleshooting of their families devices
I seriously hope that this is getting announced at WWDC this year. There is nothing obvious stopping these iPads from running Virtualization.Framework.
Not officially. You can side load UTM using AltStore which requires you to sign apps using your own developer certificate and re-sign them about once a week to keep it running.
The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially.
I really wish they would just allow this on iPadOS. It still maintains the sandbox model Apple wants for iOS, it would just give a (contained) outlet for doing things that are difficult in native iPadOS.
> The iPads have had the hardware in the M-series chips and the software in the form of Apple's hypervisor framework in iPadOS for a couple of generations now, but Apple hasn't enabled it to be used officially.
They removed the hypervisor framework in addition to the kernel support for virtualization a few months ago unfortunately.
In any case, Apple still wants to "review" apps, and we want (arbitrary) user code execution on device. That's something Apple strictly forbids on iOS/iPadOS AFAIK (which is why we can't even have Firefox addons). Unless we can have at least true side loading, a DMA extension to iPad won't help.
The DMA isn't really the right tool to liberate devices, since it's about market competition not consumer rights. I think it would be better to widely address this along right-to-repair, electronic waste reduction and consumer rights regarding actual ownership. Unconditionally locked hardware is ridiculous.
I wish they would simply unlock the bootloader, so we can have Asahi Linux for iPad. They don't have to do anything else. Although Asahi is on trajectory to exceed MacOS performance and dev usability, I don't think they would lose their existing appstore cattle to Linux, but rather gain new hardware only customers.
Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA.
However, if we're lucky, Apple may decide the app approval process may not be worth it, if they are not allowed to extort developers anymore, so they may allow unsupervised sideloading as a consequence.
In any case, requirements and reality may take much longer to align than 6 more months, considering Apple's cringeworthy tantrums so far...
> Though, I don't see true sideloading (like on Android) specified. If apps still need Apple's approval, we will get "freedom" who to pay, not what to run. I still don't see device liberation within the scope of the DMA.
But if Apple abuses its position as platform gatekeeper with the app approval process and rules, the EU will probably slap them down. The DMA doesn't care about device liberation, but it does care about fairness, so Apple will probably only be allowed to continue this if they act in very good faith towards 3rd parties, which doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do.
Sidecar sort of does this right now? If you are fine with the iPad functioning as a low res display that the Mac can send a few windows over to. It doesn't work amazingly well for me but I have used it a few times.
There was a Bloomberg article[0] which clickbaity hope-lied about it even. They changed the title ; it said ‘turns’ before, not should; I still have a screenshot from what it really said.
In his recent video MKBHD said the same. He’s certainly a tech YouTuber (probably the biggest) but no where as techy as the average HN crowd. A lot of comments on fetter & reddit also speak about this.
That 50m+ figure is surely iPads in general, rather than iPads Pro? iPad Pro is specifically marketed to media production professionals as a viable replacement for a laptop, but media production professionals (like the aforementioned tech youtuber) again and again complain that it isn't good enough. It's certainly good for some professional tasks, like drawing, but it seems lacking for things like video editing.
I was really surprised by his review. His review made it seem like technical progress was not a worthy pursuit. We should be satisfied with the status quo and Apple should stop setting goals.
I think it was more of how the latest iPads are still just a spec bump. The hardware has been perfect for several generations, it’s the software that’s holding the hardware back.
I mean, they only made a poor demo since the announcement and then vanished not providing any more info. I do think projects LIKE Devin can replace some developers that work in most popular domains (I'd guess JavaScript and such), but it won't replace devs in complex fields (e.g embedded programmers)
I'm in awe that it's maintainable even though it launched almost 50 years ago, while there is software deployed right now that won't be maintainable in the next 5 years.
Because it makes economic sense to apply extremely rigorous standards when writing software for a space probe, but not for a web app for expense reclaims?
When you inherit some random security update to an obscure library and it causes things to break, you were never expected to understand that edge-case.
However, if you spin up your own safety critical embedded system, you should be able to follow the logic completely.
Different costs. One is in the billions of dollars, one is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
True, yet I feel the expectation regarding software has shifted from expecting much better quality even 10-15 years ago to things we have now, where nobody is surprised about web apps crashing your browser etc.
Have you even used TikTok?
Facebook connects you with the people around you, and TikTok connects you with your favorite people on earth. That's the essence of the product.
