I spent a few days there a couple years ago. Ubud is a cool place, with incredibly good and cheap food and housing. But the reason that costs of living are cheaper may not be entirely disconnected from the fact that life feels cheaper in general. Not only is there currently a rabies epidemic among the wild dogs that are everywhere, but there are a million other random ways to get killed, everything from falling into giant unmarked holes in the middle of the sidewalk to getting hit by motorbikes.
This is something that I can't get first world people to understand. It costs more to live in a third-world country. And I mean that literally. It is cheaper to vacation in third-world but try running a business there.
Here is an example:
- Imported products have high tariffs. Electronics and Cars are usually more expensive than the US.
- No Good Transportation Hubs/Companies like DHL to move things around. Broken and corrupt customs.
- No trained professionals to repair electronics.
So What gives? I had to pay around $200 to fix a Wifi issue on a Macbook; and the worst part? Wait for 3 months until the replacement was shipped.
Let's not then get to the other issues: Health, Public Transports, Schools, Taxes, etc...
It costs more to live the same lifestyle you had from your home country. If you cook and eat local food, don't indulge in expensive imports, use fans instead of aircons 24/7, drive a moto and not a car etc. Too many expats move out here and live in expat ghettos where it is expensive. Move to an area that is at least 10km from the nearest Western Style coffee shop and you'll find it's a lot cheaper. Sadly, two weeks ago a chain coffee shop opened across the street from the university where our office is, so there goes the neighborhood....
As for electronics? Stay away from ecosystems like Apple, they are expensive everywhere. Twenty years ago, our Thai office used Macs because we needed to run Japanese software that only ran on Macs. We needed to go to Penang (in Malaysia) to buy new Macs or get them fixed. But the prices there were about the same as in Hong Kong. Was it as easy going down to Golden Shopping Center in HK? No, but life was a lot more pleasant and overall a lot cheaper. We moved shop to Phnom Penh five years ago and haven't had any serious problems running a cloud service here except for the power outages.
That's Apple and Oranges. We are comparing same lifestyles in different countries. Otherwise the comparison will not hold.
Collecting Government stipend from a wealthy country, living in a rural area, and using nothing but free government services will make life less expensive even for the minimalist lifestyle.
But that's not the point here. The point is, is it cheaper? The answer is obviously: No!. If it was, people will move to "arbitrage" out there money/lifestyle. That's what happened with Thailand. That's what is happening with Cambodia.
I spent 3 weeks there in October with friends and thoroughly loved it, in the same breath also loved coming home. [yes...I can drink water out the tap and it won't try to kill me!]. I think the dogs have improved in the last few years with a concerted effort to clean things up in that regard [errr.. don't want to think what that actually means].
We spent 10 days on the Sayan Terrace area in Ubud and could certainly see the mental wellness qualities of coding overlooking a stunning vista. That said the latency was pretty terrible back to servers located in the states (quite iffy internet) + power up and down; as opposed to North Kuta where at least internet was more solid.
If younger me were trying to do something hidden way for a while coding; and location didn't make a difference, and you wanted to limit costs... it certainly would be a consideration.
Stunning beautiful country, with a lot of litter, a healthy dose of asia-traffic-chaos, lovely, lovely people, cheap cost of living. You would just have to have a bit of a strong constitution about the odd thing you'd see. Of course, you'd have to not get sucked into getting into Island time and loosing productivity to Bintangs...
> But the reason that costs of living are cheaper may not be entirely disconnected from the fact that life feels cheaper in general
Of course the low costs of living are related to the general economic situation, most people there are very poor by western standards and Bali infrastructure is at it's limits and has poor safety.
It's overly pessimistic view but if you didn't like it then you can consider other parts of the world. May be Patagonia, or Kenya ? I never visited both of these countries but would love to hear from other engineers.
Not to discourage the article but just because people smile in SE asia a lot doesn't necessarily mean they are happy all the time. A lot of it is cultural as well.
They may not even be nice people. I've seen young hooligans smiling at packpackers while they were discussing what good stuff they might have in their backpacks. The backpackers didn't understand the language so they just smiled back.
Completely agree. It is a cliche and somewhat prejudice to talk about the "Thai smile" or the smiling in other asian nations. These cliches are informed by foreigners who impose their own motivation for smiling onto that of a very different culture.
It's not unlike how I often hear non-Americans talk about how friendly all Americans are, simply because when you do things like get a meal at a restaurant, the waiter will ask, "Can I get anything else for you?" Well, to me they are just doing their job but to some people from different places, the waiter is being unusually friendly to ask that.
Imagine this; you leave your home and say good morning to your neighbor smiling and sharing positive energy every morning.
But you're right; a person might smile at you when he is actually carry negative feelings. For example, my landlord is a greedy guy and he sometimes wants to rip me off and he also smiles :)
When I went to Thailand, everyone looked so smiley, nice, and with friendly advices, turns out most people that talk to you just want to con you in some way.
Indonesians smile when in uncomfortable/awkward situations (among other times). It's a different type of smile to a happy smile, but foreigners might miss the subtleties.
Also, don't assume it's all slow Islander life; Indo gets pretty hectic depending where you are (Bali included); it's got a massive population on a pretty small amount of inhabitable land
On a more long-term note, though, visa policies are much more friendly in the East than the West.
"Indonesia doesn't require visa for Turkish citizens so my family can visit me anytime they want without going through visa application processes. This is one of the reasons I left US; my family and friends always wanted to visit me when I lived in Oakland but they wouldn't go through the expensive and humiliating visa application process."
I currently live and work for a local company in Kaohsiung, Taiwan, which runs a factory making microSD memory cards.
The salary is low, but the living costs (food & rent) are very low, so I end up saving over 50% of my salary each month. It's comfortable. People who work over the Internet get paid even more, but they have to risk working illegally on tourist visas instead of having an Alien Resident Card.
I'd try to stay longer if the government would do something about the education system, dual citizenship, military service requirement, and air pollution. Those reasons make me think it's better to go elsewhere to start a family. This is a nice place to be young though.
> I'd try to stay longer if the government would do something about the education system, dual citizenship, military service requirement, and air pollution. Those reasons make me think it's better to go elsewhere to start a family. This is a nice place to be young though.
Are these issues in Taiwan? I haven't been to Kaohsiung (except when flying back to Singapore) but my wife is Taiwanese so I've traveled to Taiwan a lot. Taiwan care a LOT about education and the people are pretty highly educated AFAIK, They also allow dual citizenship (which a lot of countries in Asia don't), granted it's impossible to get citizenship in Taiwan. And air pollution is no better/worse than say, Sydney - Australia.
High school is stressful and focuses on repetition, not creative thinking. After-school buxiban cram schools are common. But then university is a joke. People are generally quite smart, but I think that has more to do with their interaction with the outside world (no internet censorship and lots of people joining Working Holiday or study abroad programmes) instead of school.
Taiwan requires people to give up their previous citizenship to become Taiwanese. But people who were born Taiwanese can take on other nationalities.
AQI in Kaohsiung is over 150 today. Sydney is 20. It's better than China or India, but I still have to wear an N95 mask when I go outside, or I'll cough and my sinuses will dry up.
The article doesn't mention anything about the author's visa? For indonesia you can get a VOA for 30 days free or 60 days for $50 but you can't stay longer than that without an APEC card or a KITAS (work permit - hard to get).
Visa policies are certainly more relaxed in SEA than the western world but you can't just hang out all year, working nonetheless, and expect no issues.
You can get three months social visa via agents and extend it bunch of times. This is what I did before Kitas. I just added this info to the visa section.
Hm, the social visa doesn't allow you to work. Of course you still can but you're running a risk. Last year there were a bunch of people deported at short notice after immigration raids, including westerners. And you need a local to invite you.
Still, good to explain how it's an option. I also love Bali, so long as it's as far away from Kuta as possible...
Like I said, that free visa is for 1 month. You can renew for 1 month if you pay $50 on entry. The free visa you're not allowed to work. So this guy is either there illegally, is doing visa runs to Singapore every month or two, or has some other visa that I'm curious about.
Source: lived there for a while and did a LOT of visa runs
The prerequisite for that, according to [0], is "The Limited Stay Visa, or VITAS1, is a single-entry visa that foreigners may obtain for the purpose of investment, research, work and etc".
Fair enough, so it looks like he's got his KITAS. Bear in mind that's a significant hassle to get and can be quite costly with all the documentation needed. I have a friend who recently got his, as he needed to be the director of a company, and all up I believe it cost around USD$3500.
Just a side-note, there is a lot of active volcanic activity throughout Indonesia. Currently pretty much all flights in and out of Bali are cancelled due to Mt Agung being on the brink of eruption. It's not one of those things you'd need to worry about every day of course, but it could inconvenience you if you had to travel and got caught out by it.
I am taking a week off work in Dahab, Egypt. It must be off-season, because most of the hotels and restaurants are empty, but it seems to have similar advantages. It's very inexpensive, a sizable semi-permanent population of foreigners, on the sea with good snorkeling and interesting places to walk nearby. There are very cheap flights from Europe to Eilat, Israel, although the Israelis charge you $25 USD as you leave over the land border.
Actually I was thinking of setting up a kind of very inexpensive live-in hackerspace, in the Ukraine perhaps, with workshops for metalwork, electronics etc. and a live-in fabricator. You could live there, study, work on projects, help others.
It's been permanent off-season in the Sinai for quite some time thanks to Islamic State and friends, who killed several hundred people worshipping at the "wrong" mosque earlier this week...
I spent an extremely memorable month in Ubud 5 years ago writing the software that runs my SO's successful consulting business. She still uses the software, and I'm considering another stint there for my next project.
Ubud is beautiful, and I will probably take a couple of weeks to work there again next year, but I don't know if I could ever put down roots in a place like Bali.
Full story: I am of Sri Lankan heritage, born and raised in Malaysia and now live in Australia with my own family.
So, I know what it is like to live in an Asian country after also living in the West (er, South). My summarised take:-
UPSIDES:
Bali and other developing Asian countries ARE very cheap to live in for the long term. The food is a big plus to me, but I grew up with most of these foods and fruits, and they are a familiar part of my life. Some westerners may have trouble adapting.
For instance, I LOVE durian, but it make most of my Aussie friend retch even when I mention them. Of all the things I miss most about Asia, it is the street food.
I also miss the mixes cultures. I really enjoyed going to various friends houses throughout the year to celebrate Chinese New Year, end of Ramadan feasting, Deepavali, Christmas etc. There was a general cohesiveness of different cultures that doesn't seem as strong to me in Australia.
DOWNSIDES:
Most third world countries are rife with corruption. Get arrested in Bali and you better be ready to pony up some hard cash to the officials or else face worse consequences. Health services are also really bad, in terms of emergency services. I routinely get dental work done in Bali, but if I broke a limb or got appendicitis or an infection, I would far rather be back in an Australian hospital.
Language can also be a factor, I guess. I speak Malaysian and English, so getting around in Bali is not really an issue for me (Indonesian is 99% similar to Malaysian). However, I would struggle a bit in places like Vietnam or Laos.
Bali, and especially Ubud, are being ironically killed by their popularity. A LOT of local Australians I know go there to co-work for weeks at a time, and unfortunately, with tourism also comes nasty things like higher crime and fraud. Bali is becoming less and less safe as some of the less savoury locals learn how to manipulate and extort visitors. The old days of being humbugged by stall holders at the beach seems quaint. The newer operations on unsuspecting tourists are far more sinister.
Conclusion - I don't mean to put anyone off. Bali is a beautiful place, and Ubud is definitely worth a visit at least once, to work at with your laptop, or for a company retreat. But I wouldn't pencil it in as a 'bucket list' destination. There are plenty of other Asian countries that can offer the same, or if not better opportunities. For those used to the convenience and modernity of the US, perhaps Singapore or Penang (Malaysia) might be a better place to experience the difference in cultures?
I wanted to share this article in HN because I know many people here are looking for alternative ideas about where to live meanwhile building something independently. Not just Ubud specifically, I recommend people like me to explore developing world and consider alternative places for starting their own venture.
