If we take any argument to an extreme we can see where the flaws lie. For example, who would claim that if their life depended on it, they couldn't change some aspect of themselves? Or if someone else's life depended on it.
And, no I don't have to be careful about saying things like this. I think it's an extreme failure of our modern society to side with those very, very few that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems (ie, brain damage) compared to vast majority of people that simply have emotional damage, something that can be overcome with personal responsibility and having a reason to change.
In my case, I valued my relationship with my kids and wife more than the physical satisfaction I got from yelling at them.
If you choose to yell at your family, and blame a non-fixable disorder, so be it, maybe in your case, or someone you know, that's possible. But that person needs to get professional help. If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.
But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.
Word to the wise, if you give yourself an excuse, you will take it. For people that simple can't change how they act, they should check them selves into an mental health institution now, and get some help. Everyone else can truly and absolutely change themselves.
You just need to value the person you want to be more than the person you are.
> If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.
To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their condition:
> also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over
Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day. That's the only choice available. To keep living or not. Traditional logic is not available to the suicidal person at that point. Only depression logic, and as the saying goes: depression lies. People who love their families end up feeling that their family would be better off without them dragging them down and instead of asking for a hug, they kill themselves. Depression blinds you to what your options really are, and what the truth is. You can't rationalize your way out of it with facts because depression destroys facts and replaces them with the conviction that you aren't worth anything.
> But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.
I agree with you that the availability of an illness to be used as an excuse for poor choices comes with some baggage. And many people can improve their quality of life and relationships through making better choices in what to do, and allowing those better choices the time to accumulate into meaningful change. I am proud of you for improving life for you and your family.
In terms of professional help, I do believe it starts with taking and listening to a therapist and trying to create change based on thinking differently. It often works. If that fails, a trial-and-error journey with medication begins. If that also fails, the person is screwed until further notice, or they can try a bunch of experimental things. All of this is only possible if they can afford the costs of therapy and treatment, which is by no means a given.
>To be fair, they may well think you are referring to them, because of your words here and how you don't seem to acknowledge the reality of their condition:
I can see that. And I feel that sometimes a slap in the face really is what we need. People don't seem to like that idea, but it happened a few times to me, and some people will take that and turn it into a good thing and others won't.
I am speaking to the people who will accept the possibility that they can change. People who will never accept this will never change, it's that simple. Because they will always blame someone else for their problems. I have had people like this in my life, and they eventually come around to blaming you.
I found that for some people to get out of depression, they need to cut ties with these people, and find friends that will support them, not drag them down. Life is too hard the way it is.
>Sometimes really all the person can do is avoid suicide for another day.
I am intimately familiar with this. And I understand that's there's a point in time where words are meaningless. But if they are reading hacker news, I suspect it's possible they aren't there right now. In fact, by reading comments like this, it indicates they are looking for answers, encouragement or something, who knows.
When I was there, I looked for anything to help me through the day, or the moment. Sometimes it was cutting to make other pain dull, or finding a way to off myself that I think I could go through with. Anything. Drowning is how I would describe it. Logic to a drowning person is pointless.
But then, you have moments, where you are on the beach, you aren't drowning, and your fine. But you know where you will be again soon, and these are the times where you can look for hope. Find something to hold onto when you are drowning again.
One difficult choice I had to make was to not expect the people around me to take the weight of my pain. One of the worst nights of my entire life were when I was on the phone with a girlfriend who hung up to kill herself. I called her family and friends and found out the next day she was fine and she dumped me shortly after.
Despite all the pain I was in, I couldn't believe that someone could hurt you so bad and have no remorse about it. I realized then that if I expected other people to constantly be worried that I was going to off myself, that it would be the worst thing I could do to them.
So, using this knowledge, I started to face my pain, one little bit at a time. I didn't stop looking to suicide as an answer to my problems until I worked at this for many years. Always reminding myself the pain I would cause others.
It's a terrible lie that people believe that other's would be better off without them. And it may take a really long time to convince yourself of the opposite, but I know it's possible. The more you do for others, the more real this becomes. I made myself valuable to my family, with the intentions of doing the opposite of taking care of just myself, and over time I slowing learned to believe they value having me around.
I can say that even today, I don't have the same conviction many other people have of this. But I am not depressed (still have bad days, but I get out of bed and face it) and I no longer consider suicide. I have to say that it's my logic that helps me see the truth, it helps me stay on track, because my feelings can twist me all up, and I no longer want to follow them wherever they go.
I know many people can't afford professional help, but today, you can go on an internet board, call your parents, or a friend anywhere in the world and just ask them to say something encouraging. Anything happy or good.
The therapists I dealt with followed books and rules, my wife would just hold me for an hour. Which do you think made my day better? I know many people don't have a wife, or a friend to get help from. But there are many people out there that will help a random stranger through a moment of darkness.
Sometimes the answer to a problem is to just ask anyone for help.
I read quite a few war time memoirs (not soldiers bit people living there) and people indeed died because they could not adjust. Some aspects of you are changeable, others not so much. And checking yourself into mental institution won't change any of what is talked about here. Neither psychiatry nor psychology works so reliably, never mind them having to deal with real huge mental disorders primary. They will kick you off, because they deal with really heavy stuff and they can't help you with run of the mill spiritual path.
That argument is literally just you trying to insult/offend people. Maybe you stopped yelling at your familly, but you are still solving disagreement with insults - that pretend to be fact based but are based on lack of knowledge about mental institutions. I find yelling better, as long as I can yell back. It is less under the belt.
Society does not side with people who have problems, except in very few circumstances anyway.
>Neither psychiatry nor psychology works so reliably
I agree, most of the shrinks I dealt with were a mess, and could hardly help me.
>That argument is literally just you trying to insult/offend people.
I didn't mean to, and I regret posting that, as I really don't believe that it would help. And yes, I meant it as an argumentative point, that if you can't control your own actions, your likely a danger to society. Which really isn't a good argument to make in this context, and was a low blow.
>...you are still solving disagreement with insults...
The thing I taught my family, that didn't get mentioned here yet, is that I taught them how to be wrong and sorry. This solves almost every problem in a relationship.
I did it openly in front of everyone in the family. And when I screw up, I gather my family together in one room, and I openly apologize in front of all of them. I state clearly what I did wrong, and that I was sorry for it. I don't make an excuse for it, I just say sorry.
It doesn't mean there aren't fights, that will never change or end as long as life has difficulties and stresses. It means that our fights are more about what is actually wrong, not about being personally hurting towards the other person.
And when I go over the line, I apologize, and now everyone else in my family does this too.
>Society does not side with people who have problems, except in very few circumstances anyway.
Not in a good way, but society certainly likes to give excuses for keeping our problems as they are, or blaming someone else for them. Or at the very least, making us feel like we can't solve them ourselves or with just our friends and family.
Please tell me that either socialmedia use it outside our personal control, or the news is mad with false reports about social media causing depression (or at least making it worse).
So, if a simple choice to not use social media can affect your state of mind, how much control do "physically healthy" people have over their lives?
> or the news is mad with false reports about social media causing depression
Not necessarily false, but out of proportion with the quality of available evidence. Blowing preliminary or otherwise limited results way out of proportion is a routine problem with science stories in the popular news media, to the point that one journalist/scientist published a (real but intentionally flawed) troll study specifically to demonstrate how bad the problem is [1].
Basically, the popular news media is a pretty poor source for new scientific findings, especially for anything that relates lifestyle to health.
>Basically, the popular news media is a pretty poor source for new scientific findings, especially for anything that relates lifestyle to health.
Well, you have a good point there. But often times the truth takes a long time to come out. And comes out in bits over years. For example, I quit eating white sugar in 1995, and for many years people got literally angry with me because I wouldn't let my kids eat the stuff, or I wouldn't eat the dessert. They thought I was insane or the worst parent ever.
Today, there are other parents in our community who do the same. Doctors have told a number of my friends to not eat processed sugar because it damages arteries, etc...
With social media? Listen to Simon Sinek, he explains the pheonomen on the biochemstry and drug feedback in our bodies from social media and how bad it is for our youth.
One day I saw my oldest daughter sitting with a bunch of her friends. They were all ignoring her because they all had ipod touches, it broke my heart, so I let her get one. It was a big mistake I didn't repeat with my other kids. She got hooked on social media and is barely just now (after years) starting to get away from it.
But I agree, the news usually messes up health related information.
Is it possible that you are confusing depression, the mental state characterized by low mood which is experienced at times by most people, and major depressive disorder, the mental disorder characterized by persistent depression? Major depressive disorder is commonly referred to as “depression,” so it can be confusing.
Sure it's possible. I think the definitions of words compared to our actual experiences can vary greatly. But either way, I've had similar experiences to many other people that are still trapped in them and I know for a fact that you can do something about it. Even if it's just talking to a friend and asking for a hug.
My point was that your claim that positive thinking or willpower or whatever can cure depression may be far more accurate if you’re talking about the former definition than if you’re talking about the latter definition.
No, I am saying there are more like me than there are of other types. And if there aren't so be it. But that doesn't mean I am wrong, it just means it's not useful to you or a subset of people you are listing.
So are you suggesting I not saying something because it doesn't help everyone?
>I just wish that after some time, you will see your faults about making blanket statements about people with mental disorders and addictions after beating such a dangerously addictive substance like white sugar.
You do know that sugar is more addicting that heroin (edit: it was "cocaine", not heroin, oh well) right? I'd say that is no small feat, and you are belittling something out of context. Hard drugs and sugar are equals in this regard.
Also, I don't like bringing up the darker side of what I have faced, as it can quickly spiral. I was suicidal as a young kid. I was in the hospital multiple times from suicide attempts, so I absolutely understand what people with real problems face.
I simply chose to write about a simpler and easier change that is possible. But it seems even this is frowned upon.
You may want to be careful you don't fall into the "crab mentality" with your comments.
I truly think people can turn things around in their lives. And I hope you read my other comments so I don't end up repeating myself too much. But we should be encouraging eachother to find answers not telling eachother we can't make it.
I quit sugar and it was literally a non issue, I barely noticed. Since then I've gone on and off at various times and it has never taken any willpower to speak of.
Smoking, otoh? A horrible, personality deforming withdrawal.
Drinking? A pernicious little voice in my head that pops up at the worst moments.
I've been reading all your comments on this thread and I think you are really on to something, and I think you are right that the way people talk about the steps required for change is flawed.
I do think though, that if you want to spread your insight to as many people as possible, an effective element would be to deliver your message with the explicit acknowledgement and context that the subjective experience of all of these things varies dramatically from individual to individual.
This might hone down the relevant ideas to just the ones that apply to many other people.
If you can distinguish your unique experience from the universal aspects you can craft a message that might help a large population.
But no, not everybody finds sugar more addictive than cocaine.
>But no, not everybody finds sugar more addictive than cocaine.
Not everyone finds cigarettes addictive either. I smoked quite a bit when I was younger, off and on, and never felt the need to smoke ever.
Doesn't this same logic apply universally then? That every chemical reaction affects everyone differently? But no matter what, there are some chemicals that are addictive to the majority of people?
>...explicit acknowledgement and context that the subjective experience of all of these things varies dramatically from individual to individual.
I agree, that especially in this area, depression, life change, etc... that it would be best to couch everything with the "doesn't work for everyone" kind of phrase, but isn't this redundant? What solution for any problem works for everyone?
I think that in this case, everyone in the world has something they don't like about their life, and have a hard time facing it. Because it simply hurts to face your problems.
How do you suggest to people that if they want their pain to go away, they should do something to that adds more pain to their life?
The easy answer I found was to not worry about it, people who will see the value see it, and those that don't are not in the mind set to see it no matter how it is written. Maybe I am wrong, but in other comments here it seems that people get quite upset about saying you can change yourself.
Do you really think it's possible to get through to everyone? Or would just changing how things are written would help people that would otherwise ignore it?
> You do know that sugar is more addicting that heroin right?
Do you seriously believe this?
Do you get physical withdrawl symptoms like you get from heroin? Are you willing to steal from your wife and children just to get a hit of sugar? Have you tried heroin before?
Yes, you do get withdrawl symptoms. Try going a week without eating any sugar and see how you feel. I know it's not the same thing, I lived on the streets for a while and I had friends that used heroin and many other drugs.
But if the scientists say it's more addicting, who am I to disagree? (google this, no point in arguing with me about it)
I also lived with some hippies in the woods, they had a name for this addiction they called sugar "zhoo zhoos" (had to guess the spelling, never saw it written) There are all these people in the woods, haven't eaten anything but rice for weeks, and then some city folks come into the woods and bring candy, and you'd think a bunch of drug addicts came out of the wood works. The city hippies were kind freaked out by it. I heard one say "man, here you can have my candy bar if you need it that bad."
It's not a fair comparison, given that sugar is available so readily and cheaply.
But as a schoolchild, I did actually regularly steal from parents (cash) and employers (cash and stock) in order to satisfy my desire for sugar. I knew it was wrong and felt terribly guilty, but the desire for sugar was strong enough to overpower the sense of guilt. Stephen Fry has spoken of a similar experience in his childhood [1]
In later life I've spent years as a heavy cigarette smoker, and have dabbled in recreational drugs (including some of the more addictive ones) and have never found anything as hard to quit or resist as sugar.
lol, I actually chuckled a bit on this one. This is exactly what my childhood was like. My brother and I would have to sneak into the kitchen at night for food. We "stole" bread. :P
Then later, I learned to shoplift from a friend (4th grade) and what did we steal? Candy.
Probably not. But not everybody who has a hard drug addiction will do this either. In fact I would bet it's a very small minority of drug users would do this.
But I also know that some people will steal from their families and commit crimes and don't do any drugs at all. So maybe not a fair comparison?
> Probably not. But not everybody who has a hard drug addiction will do this either.
You won't steal from your family because sugar addiction withdrawl pales in comparison to heroin withdrawl, which you claimed to be less addictive than sugar.
I'm trying to illustrate that you were conflating the two, that opiate users can quit just like you quit sugar. You couldn't be more wrong.
Opiate addiction is a completely different beast than your sweet tooth and I hope you realize this by now. Someone who's been heroin for decades will not be able to just quit cold turkey. Someone who's been abusing alcohol for such long time will not be able to stop without experiencing life threatening seizures. True addiction will rob somebody the ability to make healthy decisions. This is why there are supervised injection sites to reduce harm because the addicts themselves will hurt themselves and others just to get a fix. They are willing to prostitute their wife and daughter so they can get a fix to avoid the withdrawls, so would you be willing to do the same if sugar was illegal? Heroin changes your brain structure after you experience the massive flood of dopamine many magnitude times greater than 'sugar rush'. The user chases that first high and pretty quickly, heroin/opiate becomes the sole purpose.
It's very insulting to to claim as you did that these drug addicts and people driven to suicidal depression just needed to 'think positive'. You are not a heroin addict but sugar addict. You don't live on the streets but in the warmth of a house and a family. Those people on the streets whom you claim society is 'siding with' cannot make the same decisions as you did because they don't have the same resources as you do.
To be fair, I corrected myself that the actual claim is that sugar is more addictive than cocaine, not heroin.
Also, I did live on the streets and have first hand experience with these drugs and their affects on real people. And I've been clear in my comments here I didn't change on my own, but needed help and support from others.
And no matter what you do for any addict, if they don't decide to change themselves, they won't change.
And, no I don't have to be careful about saying things like this. I think it's an extreme failure of our modern society to side with those very, very few that truly have a physical disability that causes their emotional problems (ie, brain damage) compared to vast majority of people that simply have emotional damage, something that can be overcome with personal responsibility and having a reason to change.
In my case, I valued my relationship with my kids and wife more than the physical satisfaction I got from yelling at them.
If you choose to yell at your family, and blame a non-fixable disorder, so be it, maybe in your case, or someone you know, that's possible. But that person needs to get professional help. If that person reads my writing, they don't get any value from it.
But for everyone else, I hope they can see that real change is possible, and ignore all the neigh sayers that will give them an excuse not to try.
Word to the wise, if you give yourself an excuse, you will take it. For people that simple can't change how they act, they should check them selves into an mental health institution now, and get some help. Everyone else can truly and absolutely change themselves.
You just need to value the person you want to be more than the person you are.