I was telling my partner that I felt the movie was meant for people who read the book. She thought it was boring. It’s missing a lot of smaller context and seems dull without it. But if you’ve read the book(s), it’s actually a pretty good visual of the series. It would take too long and be dull to everyone if we sat through explanations of everything.
This is a great supplement to anyone who didn’t read the book but saw the movie. That said, the book would probably be even better for that.
My girlfriend didn't read the book, but liked the movie a lot. "Finally a movie that takes its time to show as a different world instead of taking it as a backdrop of the same stories", she said. And I am with her. I like movies that just want to take me to a place instead of firing me up emotionally with cheap tricks while using the scenario as an exchangable backdrop.
I read the book, my girlfriend didn't. We both agreed on two things:
1. The plot was moving too quickly and without enough context. She said she didn't understand much, and I can relate to that. If I haven't read the book I wouldn't be able to pick up with the plotline.
2. We didn't have any feelings towards any of the characters. We weren't sorry for Leto, we didn't identify with Paul, Jessica or any other character, we weren't even hating the Harkonnen.
All this led us to the conclusion that it was better to take things more slowly, investing more building the characters and context and getting people "onboard". This would have probably required to split the book into 3 films instead of 2, but I think it would have been worth it.
If you want a better adaptation, watch the 2000 miniseries version of it. It ran to nearly 5 hours and, contrary to this movie, your girlfriend won't have to wait two years to see how it turns out if she isn't interested in reading the book herself.
How can you watch the 2000 mini series version?
I looked at all the streaming services and media vendors, and haven't found a way to get it.
It does seem like Dune would be better served by a mini series....perhaps 10 or 13 hours of screen time for the first book.
The 1984 movie did a better job of efficiently explaining what was happening.
Two good examples are the pain box and the slow blade penetrate the shield in training.
While the new Dune movie mention how they work - they just do a bad job of communicating that as effectively as the 1984 movie. To really appreciate this movie, you either needed to have read the book, or watched the prior movie (1984), or the TV mini-series'.
They also introduced things from the book, like how to walk in sand, and the visions of the jihad, but describe them poorly, and leave the viewer wondering why they're even mentioned. It's just badly written.
...but there were other issues with the movie as well. Long useless sequences of sand visuals that added nothing to the story - and that annoying scream sound that left our eardrums ringing, for no other purpose than to try to make the audience feel like an uneventful scene is somehow important to the plot.
A lot of people complained about the voice-overs in the 1984 film but they actually added a lot of value by efficiently introducing concepts to the viewer succinctly - especially the intro in the beginning which sets up the universe.
The best take on this universe after the book is actually SciFi channel mini-series in 2000 and then the Children of Dune in 2008.
While I'm not disagreeing with you, every one of your points is explaining things that could make it more informative - but not that necessarily actually make it a better movie.
All that you say can be true, each of those changes likely would make things more informative - but doesn't mean they necessarily should be added.
I've never read the book and what you and your gf say is exactly what I thought while watching it. I was really immersed by the world-building and visually delighted the whole time. I don't even remember some of what the plot was about, I dont care.
"SooOooo I wasn't excited to see this movie. I think I might have seen the old one, but I don't remember liking it. This movie though was amazing and now I'm just mad I have to wait two years to see the sequel!"
> I was telling my partner that I felt the movie was meant for people who read the book. She thought it was boring.
A lot of people who read the book because of the upcoming movie also thought the book was boring.
I think that most people expect character-driven narrative, and so when you get a work that leans more towards ideas and concepts, people tune out.
Edit: I think is also why the movie Sicario (also by Villeneuve) threw some people off, because it didn't operate with a "normal" narrative: SPOILER {the roles of main character and protagonist were two different people}:
On the other hand, if you take a book that leans towards ideas and concepts, and you make series with character-driver narrative out of it so people won't tune out, you get something like Foundation, that has only title and names of places and characters common with the original. All that made the original interesting is lost.
The economist Paul Krugman of all people wrote a 'review' of each basically saying the same thing:
> “Foundation” might seem unfilmable. It mostly involves people talking, and its narrative inverts the hero-saves-the-universe theme that burns many acres of CGI every year. The story spans centuries; in each episode everything appears to be on the brink, and it seems as if only desperate efforts by the protagonists can save the day. But after each crisis, Seldon’s prerecorded hologram appears to explain to everyone what just happened and why the successful resolution was inevitable given the laws of history.
> So how does the Apple TV series turn this into a visually compelling tale? It doesn’t. What it does instead is remake “Star Wars” under another name. There are indispensable heroes, mystical powers, even a Death Star. These aren’t necessarily bad things to include in a TV series, but they’re completely antithetical to the spirit of Asimov’s writing. Pretending that this series has anything to do with the “Foundation” novels is fraudulent marketing, and I’ve stopped watching.
A perfect summary. "Foundation" trilogy is essentially a novelization of the generalized anthropic principle[0]: protagonists aren't special, the only reason we're reading about particular characters and not some others is because those people happened to be at the right place and time during pivotal moments in history[1]. The show, on the other hand, seems to be just another "special heroes with special powers direct the course of history".
It wouldn't even be that bad if the show wasn't regularly referencing back to Seldon and psychohistory, essentially telling us one thing, but showing something completely opposite.
It's not all bad, though. There are elements that would fit well with the books. The way they handled emperors, for example.
[1] - Or what could be described as pivotal moments - the whole point of Seldon's use of psychohistory was to set the initial conditions to ensure there's a high probability that future events will take a very particular path[2]. Kind of like we do space missions today, where a probe is launched just right, so it stays on a predetermined path through the Solar System, making it reach its destination years or decades later.
[2] - And to my great relief when first reading the trilogy, Asimov wasn't dumb about this. He seemed to have known enough about what today we'd call non-linear systems and chaos theory, that he addressed the obvious problems of psychohistory and long-term stability of Seldon's plan in the trilogy (as well as in subsequent books).
> A perfect summary. "Foundation" trilogy is essentially a novelization of the generalized anthropic principle[0]: protagonists aren't special, the only reason we're reading about particular characters and not some others is because those people happened to be at the right place and time during pivotal moments in history.
That "anthropic principle" goes out the window pretty quick in book 2 when a super-powered mutant becomes the antagonist.
... which is the point. It's all about the spinning top (The Foundation) staying spinning and not falling over...
Premise: You can't expect predictions to stay true over centuries, you need a guiding hand to keep that top spinning and not tumbling over, so you need the Second Foundation to be The Management. Bonus: due to the circumstantial requirements, you get to make them secret and hidden.
Requirement: There has to be tension within a book. There has to be conflict, resolved in a way conducive to literary imperative.
Resolution: Something has to be able to challenge this otherwise-perfectly-set-up system. Something that is not predictable, and which would not be easily adjustable by the Second Foundation; something out of the ordinary. A single man, who really can influence history. The Second Foundation would be prepared for a Napoleon of their time, but they wouldn't expect anyone like the Mule.
Corollary: The Second Foundation is exposed, introducing tension and conflict for the next book in the series. Who wants to be a puppet on a string, after all ?
It could have gone very differently if the Mule hadn't been sterile, or could have taught his skill, but again, literary imperative dictates that "The Good Guys win", so the Second Foundation overcomes the Mule, and the plan is put back on track. Suspiciously well, in fact. The anthropic principle is validated, and a single man did not in fact change history. This time.
"The Good Guys" changes in later books, of course, and the Second Foundation end up losing, but that's quite literally another story :)
What I found endearing about the books[0] is that it didn't try to cast any of the factions as The Good Guys. The Foundation definitely isn't. The trilogy, especially the first book, shows the Foundation applying plenty of hard realpolitik to survive and expand; they do not carry any moral banner, except that of Seldon's Plan. They're not the United Federation of Planets by any measure. They just are. The Second Foundation isn't presented in a better light either.
> The anthropic principle is validated, and a single man did not in fact change history. This time.
I most likely haven't read far enough into the book sequence, but at least by "Foundation's Edge", the anthropic principle remains valid; the protagonist of that book, despite being seen as special by their contemporaries, still turns out to be involved in the story only because they happened to be best person available along the criteria of the ... entity ... driving the events.
--
[0] - That I've read so far, i.e. the trilogy, and "Foundation's Edge".
> I mostly agree, except for "The Good Guys" part.
That's why I had "The Good Guys" in quotes :) We're supposed to root for the Foundation/Second Foundation, but it's clearly presented as the best of two evils. People, being people but better than 30,000 years of anarchy.
> you need a guiding hand to keep that top spinning and not tumbling over, so you need the Second Foundation to be The Management
That's where your anthropic principle ends, though, halfway through the trilogy. From there on out the original protagonists can't win without a new "special" set of characters blessed with superhuman abilities.
It is just not to set the initial conditions. It needs to be guided constantly. The probabilities need to be updated periodically, alternate paths need to be mapped (e.g. bring the plan back on track after The MULE). Hence the Second Foundation and the need for people to be unaware of them.
(spoiler) Even the entity, beyond the Second Foundation, who started everything and keeps it on track.
Yes, that's what I meant in my footnote no. 2. I was just trying to avoid spoilers - but since the whole subthread subsequently has been: both Seldon and Asimov demonstrated their understanding of chaotic systems by creating the Second Foundation, whose purpose was to maintain Seldon's plan as a closed-loop optimization system, despite the Foundation (and initially, the reader) believing it was an open-loop, fire-and-forget one.
Also what I liked about the series is the multiple logical explanation of things which seem equally convincing but ultimately wrong. e.g the location of the second foundation
and later of earth.
In this logical recursion you have to keep track of the level your are in till ultimately a simple explanation is revealed. Sometimes it feels too much of a coincidence, but I enjoyed the mental gymnastics.
Of course Paul Krugman is a fan of the Dune and Foundation books!
Very few shows or movies can pull off exploring how a system works, from top to bottom, to show how the world is shaped by rules, customs, etc. The Wire comes to mind as the best "real world" example. I was very impressed by how the Dune movie hinted at the underlying systems while translating the salient points and the "feel" of Dune to the language of film. While I feel it failed in some places, it's a hugely impressive achievement. I love Lynch and like his Dune, but really it's a totally different work from the books with surface level similarities. 2021 Dune feels like a true film adaptation, no easy feat.
Well at least I can take the Foundation TV show off my "to watch" list now
Thanks for that summary; I didn't know there was a Foundation TV show, and at the moment I don't care either.
It reminds me of an attempt to make a Brave New World TV show, which based on the trailer has... little to do with the original book. The book itself wasn't even a good book in terms of storytelling IMO, it was more about worldbuilding and a bleak look at a "utopian" future.
So far it's a binge watch in a weekend when you have nothing better to do series (visuals are nice), but instead of giving the viewer that satisfaction of having some minimal immersion for a few hours in a story ... it has FUCKING DUMB cliffhangers at the end of every god damned episode. :(
Oh yes. The Foundation series would stand fine on its own, but it's pretty much the exact opposite of everything the book trilogy was, making the experience extremely jarring to me (I've read the books somewhat recently, so they were fresh in my mind when I started watching).
I agree. Having read the books of both series though and coming in with the expectation that I just wanted interesting science fiction I’ve been pleased with both the Dune movie and the Foundation series.
Foundation so far looks like two different shows: a very cool Empire story with three cloned Cleon guys, and a pathetic cliched YA action series about Terminus. (I'm rooting for the Cleons)
The problem for me is that the movie wasn't leaning into ideas and concepts either. I see a lot of comments about political, religious and ecological topics in Dune but I saw almost nothing about that in the movie, other than very shallow comments/ideas. To me, Dune felt like a completely empty movie: scenes are beautiful, yes, but that was it.
Nobody seems to mention the mini-series - I thought it was the best Dune rendition to video/film. I hated the Lynch version. Sting totally turns me off.
I read the book in the early seventies; never liked the prequels/sequels. I'm also not that keen on the mutant Paul/Sandworm god. That didn't work for me.
My biggest gripe with it is that it's just yet another Villeneuve movie. It's not different enough compared to BR2049. It seems as if 2049 was just a study for Dune. (Because probably it was.) And there's just not enough life in Dune compared to the richness of the books. (Nor in BR. Or in Arrival. ... Because Villeneuve emphasizes the anxiety of alienation a bit too much...?)
The emptiness in BR2049 was explained in-universe: people were leaving Earth for colonies and the planet was severely depopulated. It was OK for it to have this lifeless feeling. But "Dune" should be brimming with life, struggle and constant dangers, this melancholy and sterility do not fit it at all.
I also found Blade Runner 2049 terrible. It felt totally empty. The original movie had an interesting story and built an interesting world. I don’t even know what 2049 was really about.
I felt the same about the “Joker” movie. Good acting and production but ultimately not interesting .
I love that movie and I think in it, the story is just an excuse to show us the world and it's the world that's more interesting. A future where androids are organic, of course they have protein farms everywhere. They appear to have mastered sustainable (solar) engergy too. All of this and it's still a distopian future ravaged of inequality.
My god, how could you say that. I watched the Lynch version before watching the new version, just to be able to compare. The Lynch version was the worst movie I've ever seen.
One must know how to watch it. Younger people can hardly see past the flashy pictures. Lynch's Paul was particularly brilliant, his figure had some mystic qualities around it, new movie has nothing like it.
The merry-go-round thing was pretty cool tho, for a society without computers. I've yet to read an essay that examines it and tries to figure out its principle of operation.
Given some folks are complaining about the "white saviour" trope in Dune, it would be interesting to see Dune Messiah be made. It's not like Herbert wasn't aware of the idea, given what he knew about (e.g.) T. E. Lawrence ('of Arabia').
Haven't seen the movie yet, but from reading the book I just don't see the white savior angle. Freemen were indoctrinated by the Bene Gesserit to believe in a prophesy and Jessica "lies" to them to make them believe Paul is the one.
Freemen are being oppressed, but they aren't the weak ones in Dune not by a long shot since they even have enough wealth to outbid the empire on satellites in orbit around Arrakis.
I want to see Dune God Emperor adapted now that would start getting to "seriously weird" territory.
Yes, but my point is that he's not a saviour of the Freemen at all. It's clear in the books that they are better armed, better adapted and their numbers is severely underestimated by the Harkonnen. At no point in the first book are the Freemen truly at risk of being decimated.
This is a fine line to thread and I haven't seen the movie so I can't comment as to how the handled it, but while the Freemen don't have interplanetary domination in mind and Paul does lead them to Jihad, it's not like Avatar where the native are being exterminated and some random guy leads them to military success.
I dont think it matters whether they are oppressed or need a savior.
The ridiculous thing about that narrative is that an alien with their own agenda (most likely not for the benefits of the native) is somehow given leadership
In the book, at least, he earns/steals that position (it's not given to him) by virtue of his mother's knowledge of their religious beliefs and his training from birth to be a leader. Which was only barely hinted at in this movie.
I've always read Dune as a strong condemnation of the white saviour. Paul dooms the Fremen to a horrible purpose; forever to deliver a religious genocide in his name. Paul knows what he's doing is wrong, we the reader are told its wrong, and yet Paul does it anyway because his power of prescience shows him the alternative is worst for the universe. The sequels completely adhere to the idea that Paul is right, and turn the whole Dune universe into shlock, but the original novel posits the idea that Paul can't be sure it's the right thing to do.
The thing is all of that is explained in much more detail in the second part of the book. You know, the part that's not a film yet.
it seems more like condemnation of the concept of leading, or controlling, as opposed to educating and liberating. The white savior element is not neccessary to convey that message.
"white saviour" is just the pithy modern name for what the book was critical of. It wasn't just in general against saviours, the oppression and race aspects were def part of the book. I'm no activist but I was disappointed (and surprised given the current climate) that those undertones weren't in the movie at all (arguably acting nice to the Freman for "desert power", but the movie was too invested in showing Leto as a really great guy with so little screen time that it couldn't afford to dwell on the complexity) - it comes more to the foreground after he's with the Freman so hopefully the second movie will explore that critique a bit more.
None of this stopped me from really enjoying the movie - though I think highlighting the ambiguity could make it into a really great movie. The book does it by exploring how the systems work in the world which rarely works well in movies, so I'm not sure how part 2 could do it without it feeling "tacked on"
Yeah I had the same feeling. I watched the new movie, and was left feeling underwhelmed. Striking aesthetics, and a true visual and audio experience. But the first half of the film felt like all exposition with no plot, and the film didn't give me much reason to care about the characters so I didn't. But the movie left me with a feeling of wanting more, so I did some research about the world Frank Herbert created, and I actually watched the film again and enjoyed it a lot more with a better understanding of the relevance of what I was seeing.
To be honest, I think that's a bit of a failure of the film that it doesn't stand truly on its own. It seems that they tried to be very faithful to the text in terms of what they depicted - which I'm sure was appreciated by Dune fans - but I understand the source material was quite dense, so they would have had to leave quite a lot of important details out.
And I think one of the mistakes of the film was to focus so much about Arakkis. The film opens with the struggle and exploitation of the fremen over spice extraction. But I think it's the wrong focus. The thing that makes Arakkis interesting is the fact that the entire empire hinges on the spice production there. The planet itself is just sort of a back-water. I think it would have been better to start with a vignette explaining the importance of spice, to properly set the stakes for the rest of the film.
Your points are well taken. The movie could probably have used a bit more teen angst between Paul and Chani or somebody else to help with caring about characters for people new to the book. I loved it because I've read the book and seen the other movie and TV shows, but I can see how it would come across a bit like Blade Runner 2049 where it had amazing visuals but could leave certain audiences bored.
I am glad that the movie didn't do that, I liked it precisely for the reason that it made me the fly on the wall of a greater story. I know we are used to get likeable protagonists, but ultimately I often perceive these as cheap tricks that take away from my feeling of immersion for a place. Because all the usual plotpoints and hyperfunctionalized narratives ultimately tend to turn the world they take place in into exchangable backdrops, which is the polar opposite of the idea of the Dune series, where a Place (Arakis) influences the lifes of whole societies in interesting ways. I am glad that Villeneuve managed to do without the classical Hollywood-Three-Act-Script-Consultant-Techniques that make so much of todays movie production bland and unwatchable (for people like me), precisely for the same reason: I can't care for stories where I feel the cheap tricks that make it up at every corner.
But there are cheap tricks here too. The trademark Zimmer wall of sound to make a scene "impressing", the wide long shots of CGI sceneries where no one lives, the dark/cloudy environments to avoid showing more detail...
Yeah I think you could have gotten very far with a light touch here. For instance, just a few well-placed character moments between Paul and his father would have heightened the impact of what happens later in the film. And maybe also a few scenes where the characters are actually experiencing joy together to better contrast the hardships later on. The tone of the movie is generally so dour and one-note - maybe that is part of the aesthetic Villeneuve is trying to create, but I think even a little bit of emotional range could have gone a long way.
Yeah at least the david lynch opening sets the stage, but I think you could do better than just direct exposition from a floating head. For instance maybe have a voice over while showing a navigator use the spice to travel safely in space.
Or maybe show some important event in interstellar politics and explain how it was made possible by spice.
It's like 2049 in the sense that both overly rely on the admittedly really great cinematography, score and atmosphere. I enjoyed both but 2049 had a somewhat thin plot while Dune spent most of the movie on exposition and set-up as if I'm watching the first episode of a TV show.
> I think that's a bit of a failure of the film that it doesn't stand truly on its own.
Kay, it's a story that seems to be very hard to make as a free-standing fillum. (I haven't seen the new movie, I'll be looking forward to it until it arrives on free-to-air). At least three producers have had a shot, and at least two have made a dogs-breakfast of it.
I mean, they had a good shot at doing something difficult - I don't mean to diminish their efforts.
For me it was actually a relief to see that not everything is being over-explained, a sickness many modern movies suffer from. Where is the fun if after the movie you don't talk about it, look things up, maybe even read the book?
As someone who loves Denis Villeneuve I did all that, although I felt "left behind" throughout the movie, because I didn't read the books. Visually amazing, but I was sad I couldn't appreciate it the way it could have been.
To be fair, "overwhelmed" is how one feels reading the book; we're given SO MUCH all at once.
Competing cultures. Strange names. Prophecy. Paul is referred to in 4 or 5 different ways... it's a lot to take in.
The movie was the same way. They explain everything, but there's a LOT to explain so they say it once and move on.
One constantly feels "behind" and then, at the end, you feel this "wow" sensation of the scale of squeezing all that lore and world-building and storytelling and philosophy into one book.
Don't worry too much about the prophecy. It's mainly fake, the extent to which it's not fake is that the Bene Gesserit take seriously the idea that the best way to predict the future is to invent it.
As someone who remembers watching the Lynch directors cut at a 24 sci-fi marathon and had no clue what was going on I felt like this movie did a good job introducing the world building without dwelling too much on the details. The various factions made sense and if I want more there are a lot of books to dive into.
Depending on the school of thought there is just the one book (Dune); the six books by Frank Herbert; or those, plus all the output of Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson.
The implication being that not all books may appeal to everyone who enjoyed Dune (the book).
I am really looking forward to being able to spend some time in forums and with friends over the coming months (and years given how often I talk about the things I like over and over again) and see how the feelings for the Dune(2021) film correspond to peoples feelings on which books are a part of the series.
I am waiting to see the film until this weekend, so I will have to take my own impressions as a baseline and look forward to discussions and arguments on Dune saving from a dreadfully boring winter.
Perspective of books reader/movies watcher but wife hasn't read the books:
The "big picture politics" of the Landsraad coupled with the power of the Guild and Bene Geserit...is the biggest thing missing. It's all only hinted at. When you read the books you realize how all these different factions sortof work as checks and balances on each other.
If you haven't read the books, it just seems like it would be impossible to understand why anything is happening "big picture". It just seems like bad stuff is happening to the good guys.
The Bene Gesserit was something I couldn't quite get a grip on, the gravitas house Atreides' arrival seemed to have, when they came to Arrakis, the different houses and their relationships... I had a lot of moments where felt I was missing context, because the scenes presented themself as "important" but I couldn't figure it out in that moment. Sometimes later in the movie some context was given, but during those scenes I felt "lost". I will certainly give it rewatch, maybe even read the books now.
>the gravitas house Atreides' arrival seemed to have
I feel they should have had about two orders of magnitude more than that, they're the rulers from the stars, appointed by the emperor, they rule multiple worlds and have interstellar ships, and are some of the most important people in the whole Empire.
This was my biggest disappointment with the movie - they rule many worlds, but it doesn't feel that way from how they're treated. They don't vet even their closest people (like, for real, you don't know your personal doc has his family held hostage by your enemy?). Some mid-level businessmen in Russia probably have better security setup than the House of Atreides; and their posse is more fitting for some aging Hollywood actor. Seriously, they just go move to the new planet, no planetary patrols, border guards, space legions, no nothing - really cavalier about the whole thing, all while fully expecting their rivals to attack. No wonder they got caught with their pants down basically.
This is something they fail to explain in the movie, but the reason that the doctor is so trusted is because he comes from a school of indoctrinated physicians thought to be psychologically incapable of harm.
> the gravitas house Atreides' arrival seemed to have, when they came to Arrakis
In the modern age we don't have much 'pomp and circumstance', but in an aristocratic society that generally tends to be more prevalent. It helps to show people's place in the hierarchy of things.
See for example the "Sir Jean" scene from The Last Duel (set in 1386):
I think it's also worth reflecting on how modern attention spans have shortened. Modern media has spoiled us with instant and constant gratification in our pockets. Dune, the book, was written in an era where it was still considered acceptable for media to demand something of its consumers, like attention, patience and so on - and the movie is a faithful adaptation of the book.
I honestly don't like too much these kinds of takes. People still read long, boring books, still concentrate and pay attention to certain media... Responding to criticism that something is boring, slow-paced or whatever with the equivalent of "the youngs these days" is not too productive.
I think there is an argument to be made that movies have generally gotten dumber and plots more obvious. So when a film comes along that expects you to do a bit more work, I think lots of people find it confusing. (for example, figuring out that the reason no one uses guns is that shields only block fast things -- the former is unexplained, but easily deduced from the latter, which is reinforced many times.)
I don't buy that this is an actual trend. If anything I think we're seeing more original plots than we used to. Even marvel plots are a hell of a lot more interesting than their equivalents in the 00s, 90s, and 80s. A lot of content is starting to get smarter, and more genre savvy, and indie content is thriving more than ever before.
Iron Man - sort novel for setting marvel tone but mostly banal action movie
Iron Man 2 - banal action movie
Thor - banal action movie
Captain America: The First Avenger - particularly banal action movie
Marvel's The Avengers - banal action movie
Iron Man 3 - banal action movie, sort of interesting to see protagonist suffering PTSD anxiety from being a superhero
Thor: The Dark World - banal action movie
Captain America: The Winter Soldier - first interesting take. Patriotism is not the same as government obedience. Real fight choreography approaching a soft john wick.
Guardians of the Galaxy - Early rock and roll aesthetic pretty interesting
Avengers: Age of Ultron - banal action movie, perhaps mcu lowpoint
Ant-Man - superhero heist movie, literally deconstructs larger than life superhero tropes. I think thumbs up
Captain America: Civil War - by this point doing the mcu's own thing, which is novel, but probably not interesting outside
Doctor Strange - banal action movie
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 - aesthetic still feels mostly fresh.
Spider-Man: Homecoming - super down to earth high school drama, frustrated working class villains suffering the fallout of superheroes, seems interesting to me
Thor: Ragnarok - great film, very genre savvy. Rare achievement to make godly strength brutes feel really engaging to watch. Taika Waititi is a genius.
Avengers: Infinity War & Endgame - Mostly fan service and not too surprising but honestly still novel.
Ant-Man and the Wasp - Ehhh I really don't remember
Captain Marvel - Beginning had some great hard sci fi imo. Thought the ending message of newly apotheosizied female not needing to prove herself to her evil male mentor was a solid take, whereas a classic "mano a mano" kind of showdown would be so typical of the genre
Spider-Man: Far From Home - Villain emphasizing themes of the power of deceptive media? heck yeah.
Wandavision - Really bizarre and interesting start. Unfortunately non-self-aware conclusion
Falcon and Winter Soldier - Active discussions of race and the problematic nature of superheroes being supremacists? Very good.
Loki - kind of a super cliche topic (time cops) that is also somehow really rare? eh.
honorable mentions for Logan and Deadpool for being just great; and the Amazing Spiderman for its excellent aesthetics despite terrible writing.
Again, isn't this "the youths these day" argument again with no data to back it up? I mean, to put a quick example, Tenet requires a level of attention that other movies don't require.
Also, from the movie it's not so obvious that shields only block fast things. To me it looked like they work like a strong fabric held by a force field, but that can be penetrated if enough force is applied.
I'm pretty sure one of the characters explicitly says near the beginning of the film that it's fast vs. slow that makes a difference.
It's not about the youth these days, it's about Hollywood -- the fact that Hollywood movies are more commoditized and generally "samey" than previously is a pretty well-known development. It's an industry thing, not a culture thing (or, well, it may be driven by cultural changes, but I don't entirely believe that, and don't want to speculate anyway).
I don't think it's a fair characterization. I think just about everyone can infer how shields work after watching this movie. I think the issue is you can watch the film as many times with as much attention as you want, and without extended context there will be a lot which goes over your head.
Can you give an example of something that goes over one's head?
> I think just about everyone can infer how shields work after watching this movie.
If you re-read my comment, my point is not that people can't infer how shields work (they actually don't need to infer it, because it's told to them explicitly in the first 10 minutes), but that they can't infer why swords are used instead of guns. That requires an inferential leap that the movie doesn't spoonfeed you.
I've had people IRL tell me they were confused by the swords, so no, it's not a given that people can infer that.
> my point is not that people can't infer how shields work (they actually don't need to infer it, because it's told to them explicitly in the first 10 minutes), but that they can't infer why swords are used instead of guns.
Isn't that utterly obvious from how the shields are supposed to work?
> That requires an inferential leap that the movie doesn't spoonfeed you.
What, "...and bullets move fast, so of course guns won't work" is a "leap"? Come on!
And here I thought I was pessimistic and cynical about the average IQ of the populace at large...
If you think about it for about 5 seconds, it makes sense swords are the only thing that are effective against shields and the explanation about fast vs slow is very clear.
The gun example is a bad one—that's not why they don't use guns. They don't use lasguns because they cause a nuclear explosion when fired against shields.
Oh, and since you are the only one mentioning it on this page, one of my pet peeve with the movie is: why so freaking many lasers? Two is two more than we should have seen, I think.
(the other pet peeve is that they don't draw blood every time we see a crysknife).
But also, isn't there an agreement that any house that uses nukes against human targets gets obliterated by the entire Landsraad ? Which might make a bit problematic the Fremens' use of nuke(s) in the Lynch-version assault on the emperor.
I think you're correct. It's been a while since I read the books and I deliberately didn't reread them before the movie to avoid the kind of frustrations that occur when you see an adaptation and are too-familiar with the books so a few of these details are escaping me at present.
The Fremen in Lynch's adaptation did what they did in the book. They won the war any way they could as they were the underdogs, without taking Arakeen they couldn't win it.
Except that others will use it against you. Also, because this movie didn't convey it well, Spice is literally the thing that keeps the Empire and the economy going. Without it, there is no interstellar travel (thanks to a religious opposition to thinking machines). So maybe on an arbitrary barren sand planet you could try and get away with it, but this is not the one you want to test that on. It would be tantamount, at the time of the book's writing, to nuking the OPEC nations on Earth, you know, the places where (at the time) an incredibly large percentage of oil was being pulled out of the ground and keeping the global economy going.
I should probably just stop here and not expect to grok the geopolitics of this universe over a conversation like this but...
* Why is there so much conflict if there's an empire?
* Why doesn't one faction simply control the planet?
* These are just regular nukes right? Like on the scale of the atomic weapons we have now? I guess on the scale of intergalactic conflict those don't sound very important to me? Very different from the scale of a nuke on an OPEC state city.
Why is there conflict in any nation with an existing government? Because people have desires which conflict with the status quo. They want more power, more resources, better resources. In a galactic empire, do you want a planet or the best planet? Do you want the planet that makes you the most wealth or the planet that's just a bunch of rocks?
The Emperor, ostensibly, controls all the planets. The political system is based on fiefdoms in the book. He hands the administration of Arrakis to a particular noble based on his own political objectives and trust.
They are essentially nukes, yes. But melange (the spice) is only available from Arrakis (in the books it's discussed that they try and find ways to make it elsewhere, but without spoilers I can't so much more than that it doesn't work). If the OPEC nations were your only or principal source of oil in this world, and you nuked them, what immediate impact would you expect from that? A global economic shutdown, and almost certainly being ostracized (if not worse) from the international community. Setting off nukes and making it practically impossible to export melange from Arrakis would be similarly effective at collapsing the galactic empire and economy.
OPEC doesn't feel like the right analogy. OPEC is a foreign state. Arrakis seems to be, like all planets, owned by the galactic empire. It is by several orders of magnitude the most important planet. A better analogy would be if, say, Hawaii, contained the bulk of the world's energy resources. It is strange to me that the galactic empire doesn't rule this planet directly with extreme security measures. Why isn't the empire immediately taking charge directly when there's any sign of conflict on the most important place in the empire?
You're reading way too much into my analogy, but sure, go with your Hawaii version. It's an analogy, they are not exact, just, you know, analogies. To give you a sense of the idea.
Why not? You'd have to ask Frank Herbert for a definitive answer, but the next best is to read the books. There are many factions involved, the emperor is not actually in a position of absolute authority. The Great Houses, the Spacing Guild, Bene Geseret, Bene Tleilax and others also wield influence. There are checks and balances in place (by custom, by law, by force), and one of those is that the Emperor does not control Arrakis directly. It would put him in a position with too much power that the others (envious or desirous of semi-selfrule) would object to, probably violently. Arrakis is also a source of great wealth, and by giving it out to specific Houses, the Emperor is granting a favor (at least on the surface) and buying their allegiance.
> She thought it was boring. It’s missing a lot of smaller context and seems dull without it.
Not just dull, but even confusing at times because it was too minimal at parts. The actual importance of spice and its qualities is only briefly touched upon, and I think the Bene Gesserit's political importance and their long-term planning and meddling was a little too underplayed. Those are pretty important elements driving the story.
Agreed - thus one can argue that the movie is aimed at people who have read the book. Without the background knowledge provided by the book, the film is in a limbo of much ado about nothing.
I hadn't read the books, and I was seriously underwhelmed. It looked decent, but that was about it. It was very slow, there was no way to empathize with any of the characters, as they were unlikable, and often disposed of after a short screen time, and the story was cheesy mysticism in a Game of Thrones sauce. Even the sandworms were not that impressive. On the plus side, I don't like Hans Zimmer's underscores, but I thought this soundtrack was almost completely excellent (except for the use of choir).
I got completely downvoted for my opinion on Seveneves. This one won't fare better, I'm afraid.
A lot of things were so over the top that it felt distasteful. It didn't have that Avengers style light hearted, not-taking yourself too seriously and intentionally over the top vibe - it tried to take itself seriously and yet had a bunch of blockbuster cliche moments.
And the dramatic music braaping every time someone does anything stood out the most in this regard.
I liked how the music didn't succumb to "Mickey Mousing", where everything that happens on screen is accompanied by a change in the soundtrack, but instead was composed of (sometimes pretty) long lines that faded in and out. And no attempt to cover up lacking development with rhythmic distraction, either. It didn't result in memorable tunes, which is a pity.
Over the top, probably, but mainly because it had been mixed too loud. The sound editor could have done that more tastefully. Still not as bad as TENET, although that's a pretty low bar.
The sound levels were absolutely bonkers, I had volume at 20/40 for some parts and 40/40 for others. I watched most of the movie with subtitles on because I didn't want to wakeup the neighbors. I wish Android TV had the ability for loudness equalization. Does VLC or Plex have this feature? I think I checked once before and didn't find it.
I've noticed this in a lot of recent movies. Total abuse of dynamic range. The loud parts are ear splitting and then when you get to dialog, it just can't be heard at all. My ears can't hear anything quiet, but don't mind the loud parts. On the other hand, my wife loses her shit when it gets too loud and the dog goes crazy. You can't win. I sit there on the sofa with my finger constantly manipulating the volume control.
And before anyone asks, yes, I have a dedicated center channel, and I keep the receiver outputs pretty well calibrated. This seems to be a deliberate choice during the movies' production.
> It didn't have that Avengers style light hearted, not-taking yourself too seriously and intentionally over the top vibe
And I couldn't have asked for more. This movie was like a small island of refuge from the desolation of cultural genocide Marvel has caused over the past decade
Jeebus. I HATE the soundtrack. I can't stand Zimmer anymore. He keeps doing the same old textured two notes synth effects, loud booming brass basses and metallic clanking percussion noises since Inception or whatever, that fit perfectly trailers but but gets the more tiring the longer the movie. Each new film has an even more repetitive and loud soundtrack than the last one, pretending to be dramatic, but hint: drama is born from changes of emotions and atmosphere, not constant loud drones. Plus these insufferable pretentious noises never stop; in opposition to the mystical, meditative nature of the story, clearly calling for moments of contemplative silence, there's a constant background of "braooowww" "oooohh" and "clang clang". Ick. The movie was pretty good, but the "music" really degraded the experience for me.
> the story was cheesy mysticism in a Game of Thrones sauce
I've not seen the new movie yet, but the biggest problem I have with Lynch's movie is that it treats the mysticism as serious/plausible; yet a key part of Dune is that its religions are social engineering tools, managed and spread by the Bene Gesserit over thousands of years. In particular:
- Their "Missionaria Protectiva" programme spread the meme that Bene Gesserit members are supernatural witch/sorceress-like figures, who should be revered and assisted.
- The "Kwisatz Haderach" is the end-goal of their breeding programme: a male who can survive the Bene Gesserit training. As part of this 10,000 year plan, a religious meme was propagated that a messiah would appear in 10,000 years time. Hence when Paul appeared 10,000 years later (one generation early, since Jessica was meant to have a daughter), he could cash-in on the religious capital the Bene Gesserit had built up, and use it for his own ends. Note that others came close, including Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen and Hasimir Fenring (plus others who are mentioned in later books).
Yet Lynch portrayed Paul as a messiah to the audience, showing the audience a world of "cheesy mysticism" rather than letting them in on the scheme. (The miniseries did a better job of showing Paul's helplessness, despite his prescience; and his guilt for the inevitable genocide that will occur in his name)
I liked the underscores but I wish they were more under, you know? I don’t have hearing problems (that I know of) but I struggled to understand what was being said much of the time. It seriously detracted from what could have been a good, slow science fiction film.
I agree, I went by myself and left wondering how some one that didn't read the book would feel. Underwhelmed with the plot? Confused?
But from my perspective the movie was a fantastic sensorial companion to the books. I felt it nailed everything (or maybe I was justed primed to accept this). Everyone must watch this in one of those simulator-4D screening rooms with vibrating chairs.
I left unsure about the portrayal of Jessica and Gurney though. I found Jessica from the movie overly unsure and emotional to what I imagined. And Gurney too stiff.
I didn't read the book and really enjoyed the movie. Afterwards I didn't felt like there was a lot that happened in the movie, but that was not important. What I really enjoyed was the epic yet reduced aesthetics and the feel that this a bigger introduction to a hole new universe that could hold a lot of great stories. I'm thrilled for the following movies, but I don't really want to wait that long. So what I will be doing is start reading the books.
I haven't read the books and went with a poker buddy to see it. After the movie I explained my experience to him like having been dealt 94o for two and a half hour straight, frustratingly waiting for something to manifest.
I didn't read the book, didn't have any idea of the plot or anything. At about 1h into the movie (just before the invasion happens) I remember I thought "man this movie is pretty slow". Then the invasion happened (and it felt pretty rushed for such an apparently important moment) and then... it went back to being slow. The last half hour became unbearable knowing that nothing was going to happen and no plot lines were going to be resolved because it was part 1 of 2. Watching 30 minutes of a movie where almost nothing happens when you know there's not going to be a payoff doesn't feel nice.
I watched it with folks new to Dune and they were dazzled by the art. It’s an engrossing film to watch on the big screen and I loved the feeling of being dumped into this fictional world. It is a direct contrast to the modern humanity instilled into all of the Marvel or similar films that use our society as a cultural backdrop for fictional future or alien worlds.
In that vein, it is similar to the book. The book doesn’t provide immediate context. The reader collects the puzzle pieces over hundreds of pages.
Totally agree. I watched it with my family and my mom was confused at times. I had to stop and explain things like the Mentats and the real power of the Spacing Guild. I don’t think they make clear in the movie just how important this spice thing is. She also thought the Baron was the Emporer for most of the movie. I don’t know why the emperor and Irulan don’t make an appearance.
After the movie was over she said she liked it but she wasn’t sure if she could follow without my help.
They only make an appearance then, but throughout the book Irulan's commentary is interweaved between chapters. It feels like that could have been a useful path for a bit of exposition on the things that aren't explicitly covered in the plot.
I feel like the 80s movie does this far better. For all its flaws. It makes an effort to show the emperor and the spacing guild and impress upon the viewer how involved and how powerful (or in the case of the spacing guild, how alien) they are.
Might be interesting to see how they respond to the old movie by comparison.
I didn’t read the book and I thought the movie was hard to follow but certainly not boring. I rewatched it (which I usually never do), and thoroughly enjoyed it the second time around.
I had tried to get into Dune many years ago, but found it hard to keep track of all that was going on. I wish I had pushed through, because I'm now enthralled by the Dune universe. I can say that the movie helped lay a foundation for me that has made the book far more enjoyable - to the point where I'm almost finished with the audiobook after only starting it last week!
One thing that helped me with Dune is using the glossary at the back of the book. It's a bit odd and some might say due to bad writing, but he will just start using a word without ever letting you know what it means. The only way to know is from the glossary. Also, don't be afraid to consult a dictionary in some cases. I remember the word "qanat" appears a lot in some of the later books and I just ploughed through without even know what it was. Just look things up and you'll get more out of it.
My favorite part of "A Clockwork Orange" (book) was that very thing: the narrator just talking naturally and leaving the reader to figure out the slang (Nadsat).
There too was a glossary in the back of the book but I soon dispensed with it and found I could get the gist of the slang well enough to just roll with it.
If you read foreign literature, every single novel is like that anyway. Except that there is no convenient glossary at the back explaining the unfamiliar words.
Anybody can come up with a new language that happily condenses the concepts you need to have in your new world, but forcing the reader to read an encyclopedia to decipher it is just lazy. You are meant to weave the explanations in your narrative, so the reader picks them up seamlessly.
It's a bit like building a UI that is unusable without reading a boring manual.
There's plenty of exposition in Dune. I never used the glossary once. People familiar with fantasy and SciFi have no problems absorbing weird names and such at face value with the idea that context will be added as exposition continues. Looking up each term you don't know in the glossary is actually the wrong way to read these types of books. Youll be presented with information that you shouldn't know yet.
There are no rules except "be good". I've thoroughly enjoyed Dune every time I've read it and it had quite a profound effect on me as a youngster. There are countless thousands just like me and you can't argue with that really.
> It's a bit like building a UI that is unusable without reading a boring manual.
Well, I think the purpose of a UI is slightly different to that of a novel. One exists to be useful while other exists to be enjoyable. If it's useful it's useful. Doesn't matter if it requires a manual or not.
McDonald's is also enjoyable and enjoyed by millions, it's still not "good food"; as I always say, that sort of reasoning leads to us eating shit because billions of flies cannot be wrong (cit).
The best part of Dune is clearly the worldbuilding rather than the prose. Yes it can be used, and the software is great when you get to know how it works, but there is a learning curve that similar software does not have.
Your reasoning contains the same assumptions, just in the other direction. You seem to be saying that if masses of people enjoy something it must be “bad” on some level.
I don't buy this at all. I never read the book and found the movie easy to follow.
I certainly buy that some people were confused, but I don't agree that means the movie was poorly made. Some things are just not for certain people. It's a work of art as much as a product — it should not be designed-by-committee to achieve maximum popularity.
I watched it last night. It was a bit of a letdown for me. After 2.5 hours, the movie ended and I know I might be in the minority but I feel like the movie was ending at a beginning, it could have been longer.
I suppose the cheap cliffhanger ending is meant to sell tickets to the sequels. But it felt even cheaper than Star Wars in terms of summation and closure. I felt like after that much investment of time, the ending could have been a little bit more resolved rather than "New Beginning!" vibes. The movie isn't really notable in my mind without seeing the sequels. I surmise that once sequels come out, watching them back to back, will be a satisfying experience. But this movie, in isolation, is a bit too void of what a movie ought to contain.
This wasn’t a cliffhanger ending, it really wasn’t. There were so many points where the movie could have ended on a cliffhanger and it didn’t, instead it ended on a propre “pause”: things aren’t over but they’re also not left hanging.
I was really afraid of it ending like the golden compass movie’s cliffhanger which left me with such an awful taste in my mouth and then didn’t get a sequel…
I suppose it wasn't a cliffhanger, but it just felt a bit like the start of a movie rather than the end. Star Wars has done that a bit, but I felt like Dune did it in more of a suave, almost perfect way, which kind of made me sad there wasn't another 2 and a half hours to watch. I suppose I'll wait for the sequel.
Reflecting back on the movie, I really like the aspect of surviving in a desert, and flowing, becoming one with the Dao, the energy of the universe. It was really well done, and even if that's the only thing the movie provided, that is a sage adage that I will hold in my heart for years to come.
My wife, who usually hates Sci-Fi, had the opposite reaction - I thought they did a great job keeping the feeling while streamlining things - disappointed by the lack of politics but think it was the right decision. It somehow felt like a rich world despite not getting into the details.
The glaring omission, especially given our current zeitgeist, was the subversion of sci fi tropes, the questionable "white saviour" elements, the environmental concerns and treatment of the native people, but those come up more in the second part of the book anyway, so I'm holding on to hope that will be explored more in the second movie
I felt it had the opposite problem of the Hobbit trilogy. Too much cramped into 2 movies and left out too much context and supporting details that would make the world more interesting and understandable to viewers. I think it would have been better as a 10 episode series or movie trilogy instead of 2 movies.
I'm really not sure who they made the movie for. There's not really enough exposition to explain why anything is happening if you did not read the books, yet it feels very repetitive if you are a book fiend.
The best explanation of watching the movie I've seen is a friend who felt they were reciting a litany as they watched each scene. "And now Gurney trains Paul in shield-fighting" "and now the Gom Jabbar" "and now the Shadout Mapes presents the Crysknife" "Now the Duke rescues the workers from the sandcrawler" "Now Paul and his mother face the worm", etc. I'll give the movie this, it hit pretty much all the episodes that one would expect.
I haven't read the book. I thought the plot was easy to follow and exciting enough. I don't know what really needed a more thorough explanation. I mean, the Butlerian Jihad certainly sounds interesting, but now that I know about it, my opinion or understanding of the plot hasn't really changed.
In general I'm not a fan of the type of movie where everyone knows there's going to be a sequel so the emotional climax of the movie is closer to the middle and there's not too much suspense towards the end. So, overall, I just thought the ending was pretty dull.
The movie could have certainly done with a video game-esque five minute opening monologue explaining everything. I had to brief family members on the overall setting and basic plot because the movie assumes a lot of knowledge, I felt (particularly around who the Bene Gesserit are).
FWIW, I have never read the book, but had seen the Lynch movie and was obsessed with the video game which doesn't really cover a lot of the plot either, but I think does a good job of setting.
Agreed - I think the film did a great job of touching on stuff, without wasting time with exposition of it.
Been enjoying the various in-depth reviews (and the linked story) which colour in the film's sketch a bit more.
i thought they were trying to stage a kind of 'star wars' set in the desert. They are probably planning for several sequels, that's why they had to stretch it a bit.... (at least the worms were fun)
They've not really stretched it at all, Dune is a long dense book, and to try and do it justice in a single film would result in a confused mess. Just look at the David Lynch version, which even as a huge fan of the book I can't even begin to follow.
Frank Herbert was a mycologist. It is not widely known that the blue eyes of the Fremen in Dune are an homage to the cerulean blue of Psilocybe mushrooms.
In Chapter 9 of Mycelium Running, Paul Stamets reveals:
“Frank went on to tell me that much of the premise of Dune—the magic spice (spores) that allowed the bending of space (tripping), the giant sand worms (maggots digesting mushrooms), the eyes of the Fremen (the cerulean blue of Psilocybe mushrooms), the mysticism of the female spiritual warriors, the Bene Gesserits (influenced by the tales of Maria Sabina and the sacred mushroom cults of Mexico)—came from his perception of the fungal life cycle, and his imagination was stimulated through his experiences with the use of magic mushrooms.”
Having heard the name for only the second time, I can only assume the Stamets of Star Trek Discovery is so called as a foreshadowing of his involvement with the mycelial network
I've always thought that the Missionaria Protectiva was coolest concept in Dune. The "religious engineering".
The idea that over thousands of years the Bene Gesserit have seeded fake prophecy and religion throughout the universe to "primitive worlds". A Bene Gesserit visiting one of these worlds is trained to fulfill these prophecies and basically weaponize the locals.
I don't know why it blows my mind but it does. Has modern scifi used this idea anywhere?
Not quite the same, but for a book that shows the power of weaponized empathy, Richard Morgan's "Altered Carbon" (the book version specifically) has the envoys as empathic super-soldiers.
When you can easily move a consciousness into different bodies, the most dangerous opponents are those that can empathize with their enemy to such a degree that they can pass as one of them seamlessly and unconsciously predict their motives and reactions.
> I've always thought that the Missionaria Protectiva was coolest concept in Dune. The "religious engineering".
> The idea that over thousands of years the Bene Gesserit have seeded fake prophecy and religion throughout the universe to "primitive worlds". A Bene Gesserit visiting one of these worlds is trained to fulfill these prophecies and basically weaponize the locals.
> I don't know why it blows my mind but it does. Has modern scifi used this idea anywhere?
To anyone interested in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere but hasn't yet read the Mistborn series, be aware please that my answer contains major spoilers for the first couple of books, so stop reading this comment now if that concerns you.
In the Mistborn series, there are two deities for this one specific planet- for reasons I won't go into, they created the planet and its humans together but one deity trapped the other in a metaphysical prison. To escape this prison, this second one uses the tiny amount of influence it still has to pervert the prophecies and teachings of the dominant religion over thousands of years to weaponize the local population, engineer rebellions, and cause a lot of people to believe they're some "chosen hero" who will defeat a fake threat manufactured by this 2nd deity, which all eventually causes the release of the 2nd diety from this metaphysical prison.
Not quite the same I guess, but they share some similar threads.
Not exactly the same, but Alastair Reynolds has an idea in some of his books (e.g. Absolution gap) of religions genetically engineering viruses that literally infect people and give them religious experiences that match up to their religion. One of the characters has been infected by one, but remains an atheist despite unwanted visions and occasional religious experiences.
It's very short and the prose is straightforward. Most "alien" words are real-world words with alternative spellings. There is a glossary, and in any case Lord of the Rings language (English and made up) is way more difficult. The plot of A Game of Thrones is likewise harder to follow than Dune's, with more factions, more intrigue, and mysteries that are still unfolding many books within the series.
There is political intrigue in Dune ("plots within plots within plots") but it's often explained out loud or with inner monologue by the main characters. The Baron Harkonnen explains very early his plot; a deeper conspiracy is soon explained by other characters. The religion and manipulation of the Bene Gesserit is explained very clearly by Jessica. There are almost no "long" mysteries that are not explained close to their introduction.
The book also wears its real-world influences on its sleeves.
So the plot is not particularly convoluted, the prose is straightforward and the made up words have real equivalents (mostly).
I'll preface that I really did enjoy Dune, because what I'm going to say about the book will come off as negative.
The first third of the book reads like an encyclopedia article with a slow moving plot tacked onto the side, and since most of the information and the intrigue is laid out so plainly, the reader is left in a state of passive consumption. The last two thirds are entirely okay. The narrative is interesting in the abstract, but it won't keep you on the edge of your seat when you're reading it. This is where most people break off.
Dune is difficult not because the text is complex or challenging, but because it's a slog. Like reading a history textbook conveyed through character's internal monologues, and passable pros. It's an exceptional piece of world-building, and a SciFi landmark. But it doesn't challenge you to guess what's next, and tension in the book is diffused by the book's tone.
When someone goes to read Dune, I'm rarely surprised to find that they've either given up, or realized in retrospect that they would have been better served spending an evening perusing the series' wiki.
Except I don't think it's difficult, I actually agree with your second to last paragraph. Dune's prose is simple to the point of being uninteresting; the inner monologues are an overused trick; there are very few mysteries that aren't explained almost as soon as introduced, so there's little tension. And you know from the get-go that Paul's hero journey will succeed. The Digital Antiquarian makes an interesting point that Herbert's actual message -- that messianic heroes are bad for mankind -- gets lost by the fact Paul succeeds in Dune with little negative repercussions; it's only in the following books (much less read than Dune!) that the terrible consequences unfold.
(Like you, I really like Dune. I'm agreeing with your points.)
Maybe I am alone in this, but a book that 'reads like an encyclopedia article with a slow moving plot tacked onto the side' sounds amazing to me. I am unashamedly fond of the book and I feel like it is perfectly framed and paced. I also put Tolkien's The Silmarillion as my favorite Middle-Earth material.
But even with my admitted love of the material and the particular style and presentation of Dune, I think the story of Dune (and the rest of Herbert's Dune works) is well told and captivating for people who like more traditional narratives as well.
As a follow-on thought, I might be more correct in saying I enjoy 'post-structural' stories, since Steven Erikson's Malazan novels are often at the top of my personal GOAT lists.
This is essentially the same reason many people don't like Tolkien. If you don't enjoy world-building for the sake of world-building, you're in for a bad time
Agreed, though the world of Tolkien is a way deeper rabbit hole than Dune's. It's more detailed, more thought of, the backstory actually exists written down and it goes back millenia, some of its constructed languages you can actually speak in, whereas most of the backstory of Dune is only hinted at. Forgetting the non-canon and widely repudiated attempts by Herbert's son, that is.
Yet Lord of the Rings often tops the list of books (fiction) readers prefer!
I think LotR used to be obscure as Dune is nowadays, or maybe even more, and at some point it sprung into the mainstream and it hasn't left since. Peter Jackson helped tremendously, but I think the surge in popularity happened even before that. Everybody knows about Elves (and the fact they are spelled "Elves" and not "Elfs") and Hobbits, but not as many people know about Arrakis, Fremen and Harkonnen.
For me its just that you have to get through a lot of world/universe building before anything really happens. I struggle with books that want me to learn about insert alien history before telling me why i need to care about this specific alien race.
But I'm going to read the book now. Normally having a visual to put to the words helps me get through that stuff.
Same for me. I've always had a hard time reading sci-fi because of all that, especially everyone and everything having impossible to pronounce names.
I started reading it a few months ago. Linus Torvalds mentioned that he often rereads it in some interview, and I was looking for a new book to start so I went with that. I was unaware there was an existing movie or a new one coming out. It was a rough start, I gave up on it a few times but ultimatley kept with it. The timing was perfect. I ended up getting to the part just before where the movie ends so when I watched it, the book was fresh in my mind and the ideas and character traits that are only hinted at in the movie were clear to me, and I got to experience a bit of the story for the first time through the movie.
> you have to get through a lot of world/universe building before anything really happens
I'm re-reading the novel right now and there really isn't that much world-building. It's a slow burn (in a very short novel), but akin to the set up to the drama in, say, Hamlet; characters making their moves and preparing their traps, and it bears fruit in the second half.
The world building is way less complex than Lord of the Ring or A Game of Thrones. I know people also complain about those, but they are also wildly successful novels so they must be doing something right. Way less obscure than Dune, in any case.
Theres a lot going on in Dune, not all of it is explained up front. Its the kind of book where earlier parts make more sense later because theres not a crazy amount of exposition explaining things and how the world works, and theres a lot to digest. The movie ends up being kind of worse in this regard for people new to Dune
I actually like my share of scifi books. I love the hyperion series, a fire upon the deep, lots of books written by Isaac Asimov, and other books, but I really struggled with Dune. I think the prose just bored me.
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I find Hyperion almost impenetrable -- not the prose, but the fact the plot is not resolved in the first book, that I'm not familiar with Keats, that it's really slow paced with little to no action, and that as the book series goes on it becomes more and more disjointed.
It may surprise you to learn I actually like and recommend Hyperion! I like its Canterbury Tales vibe. But I find it harder than Dune, and I really dislike the follow up novels.
A Fire Upon The Deep is my super fave-rave SF book.
It would be really difficult to film - as is Dune. I haven't seen the new movie, but two producers have screwed it up. I think a movie of AFUTD would be a guaranteed money-loser.
They get frustrated with its jargon and made up words. They don't find the story captivating. And they find the writing style pretentious, antiquated, hard to read.
> They get frustrated with its jargon and made up words. They don't find the story captivating. And they find the writing style pretentious, antiquated, hard to read.
This is what I felt when I tried to read it years ago.
I might be in a minority, but I came to a conclusion, that Lynch's "Dune" (1984) is a superior movie. Of course, the extended version with all deleted scenes put back in.
Sure, this movie has great visuals, great actors, great cinematography, but _that_ movie too had great actors, imaginative distinct sets, and great memorable music. The biggest flaw is short runtime - first half of the book fits 85% of runtime, and then things are quickly rushed to a conclusion (note that the audiences in 1984 weren't taught to see movies in 2 or more parts). I feel that many book scenes were done better by Lynch (Paul's awakening, Yueh, Leto's death, Gom Jabbar test), while many Villeneuve scenes must be utterly confusing to viewers who didn't read the books (Shadut Mapes scene, which is quite weird without Jessica's inner monologue, and her lucky 'maker' pick).
In Villeneuve's Dune, the plot is very unclear, the traitor plot is absent, no meaning is given to why nobody suspected Yueh to be a traitor. His mentats are useless furniture. Thufir Hawat is given three scenes: in the first, he counts the travel costs, in the second, gives assessment of production capabilities, and in the third offers his resignation, which is declined. Who is he, an accountant? COO?! Peter DeVries is reduced to a sad freak who stands near the baron and then dies.
If you look past the visual effects, the only three big improvements in the new movie are Momoa's Idaho, which was GREAT, Batista's Rabban, and all fight scenes. Idaho's role is wasted in Lynch's Dune, Rabban was so-so, and battle sequences were meh. If only Lynch had steered away from those sonic weapon modules and had 6 hours runtime, we'd have an extremely good and vivid movie. Oh, and sound design in new movie is good, Harkonnen / Sardaukar singing / battle language are cool and weird.
All things considered, Dune (1984) was a flashy, vivid, and somewhat messy movie full of life, while Dune (2021) is sterile and almost devoid of emotions.
I still like the David Lynch Dune. I know a lot of people hate it and I agree that it has a lot of problems, but the batshit weirdness of it seemed to jive with the feel of the novel.
The Guild navigator alone is a masterpiece. The fact that it looks simultaneously uncanny and silly actually gave it a certain weird realism. If humans really did mutate like that the result would not obey any Hollywood rule of badassery and could well look silly. A platypus and an aardvark are silly looking but are great examples of adaptation to a specialized niche. I imagine flying a transdimensional space drive while hotboxing psychedelic nootropics would be a weird niche too.
I just can’t get over the hotboxing shaman piloted flying bong spaceship as a concept.
The Mentat mantra from the Lynch Dune is also great and I don’t think it appears in the book. I have my own version:
“It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of coffee that thoughts acquire speed. The teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning.”
Frank Herbert liked Lynch's Dune. So there's that.
I'm also in the camp of having liked it. Maybe because I saw it young, but I'll still watch it today. There's a ton of memorable scenes and quotable lines.
> OK: But what does this have to do with the glowglobes? The thing about writing a sci-fi book where your big shtick is that There Are No Computers is that you can no longer use “Very Advanced Computers” as your hand-waving explanation for how anything works. So Herbert, one of the great sci-fi writers, came up with a new hand-waving explanation: “The Holtzman Field Generator.” The explanation for any cool non-human tech in the Dune universe is: Holtzman Fields. How do spaceships fly? Holtzman Fields! How do shields work? Holtzman Fields! How do glowglobes float? Say it with me now: “the secondary (low-drain) phase of a Holtman Field Generator.”
This is hilarious. I think I'm going to enjoy reading the whole thing.
Yeah with Dune you sortof just have to ignore the tech. It never makes much sense.
Later on the books get heavy into bio-engineering. Some really strange stuff in the books w/ clones (and multiples/generations of the same clones) etc. The film sorta hinted at it a bit with the spider creature thing (which is not in the original book) but...one of the distinct things about the Dune universe is anything "alien" is really just weird Human bio-engineering.
I felt the opposite when I read the books. I thought it was rather clever that Frank Herbert invented a physical force [1] which accounts for much of the interesting tech that isn't possible or feasible in reality. I just wish there was more detail.
Except Dune doesn’t have the same market history as Star Wars to make funding 100 hours as easy to fund. Though realistically it would be cool if an animated, long version existed. Truthfully though with how abstract the story is it’s just hard to get anyone into the background deeply in a video format.
I don't know what you mean. Also don't walk rhythmically, it attracts Krayt dragons.
Though SW does present itself in a more fun and relaxed manner, I'm sure Dune would take itself more seriously if it were possible, but it probably actually isn't by the laws of physics.
Dune's influence on science fiction and storytelling afterwards is undisputed, but it doesn't mean it can actually compete with a franchise like Star Wars. Dune was written with a goal in mind - world building, politics, I'm not going to try and analyze it - whereas Star Wars is a pure entertainment product with a fairly straightforward "good vs evil" plotline - at least that was the initial product at the time. The sequel added plot twists, by the 3rd film it started to become formulaic, and the threequel made it kinda ridiculous.
Anyway, there's a few stories and books that had the impact and that influenced a lot of things to follow, but which are difficult to actually translate to a successful movie franchise. I mean one of the advertising slogans or quotes they used in Dune's promotional material was that it would go toe-to-toe with Lord of the Rings and Star Wars both. I think everyone that has read the books knows it wouldn't be able to.
I took my son to see the movie who didn't know anything about Dune but is really into Star Wars. After, I told him Dune heavily influenced Star Wars, he said "I could tell!" but at first he thought I meant it was heavily influenced by Star Wars, he's been rethinking his entire childhood ever since :)
World of Warcraft classic pays a tribute to Dune as well. One of the bosses, Ouro is a giant sandworm and drops an item called Jom Gabbar (a play on Gob Jabbar)
Sometimes a thing that precedes a thing gets called boring. It can be annoying, but I've seen it often. I think the one that annoys me the most is how people say Seinfeld is boring and dry, but it really inspired a lot of TV that is playing today. I understand why. The thing that invents the tropes still gets called out for using tropes.
Oh snap! good to hear. I've only started looking forward to Dune 2021 since I really hadn't paid attention... I love the audio books - book books were just too dense when I tried to read them originally. The audio books are among my favorite (Dune, LotR, WoT, Potter, Enderverse, couple others).
I've seen some good reviews and look forward to it more now knowing it's not just 2.5 hours lol
Do you think anything was rushed in the movie? I don't think there is 100 hours of story to tell or maybe you're talking about the whole series not just the first book? (and even then it's a lot)
The only way I ever want to watch that one again is a fan edit I heard about that cuts off the excess cruft.
Lord of the Rings was a dedicated labor of love and is IMO still the (set of) films ever made. The Hobbit was a cynical attempt to try and cash in on LotR's success and mindshare, but it was doomed to fail from the start for not having the same team and amount of creative control behind it.
In hindsight, I wish Peter Jackson was allowed to make The Hobbit first, then the LotR trilogy as we know it. The Hobbit could have been a film that never needed the huge budget it got in the end.
Yeah and there wasn't 9 hours worth of story to tell hence all the completely pointless fluff and endless CGI. Lord of the Rings (the theatrical versions) is still the gold standard for a difficult, large-scale fantasy adaptation as far as I'm concerned.
Over my long film watching life I've learned that there can actually be a lot of value in watching very well made movies in genre's I don't like. I learn more about cinema, the different ways it's made and what works and what doesn't. It's the same with music, very well made and especially innovative music in any genre can be interesting to listen to. In fact sometimes the fact the genre doesn't appeal to me I think allows that to fall away, to an extent, so I can see the practice of the craft more clearly.
This might be true of books too, but the time investment in reading books in genres that don't appeal to me is too much.
My wife didn't like the Dune movie, but my teenage daughters loved it. None of them have read the book, or had any explanation of it before walking into the theatre. Honestly I think it's just that people have different tastes. Any change to make the film more digestible to people likely to bounce off it would also probably weaken it for those predisposed to enjoy it.
Dune is an exceptionally skilled and personal implementation of very particular creative vision. That is true of both the book and this film. The result is not for everyone for sure, not all art is, but the film and the book are both incredible works of art.
I love Dune. I read all the books. I love it so much that I read some of the books in French (my native language) and also in English ! I did not start by reading the first book of the serie. Instead i begun reading the "Emperor God of Dune" it's probably my favorite. If i had started by the first book i don't whether i would have read all the others. So I did not expect much of this movie. I enjoyed watching it (and giving some details to my wife) but I hope the rest of the story will be adapted in movie. I think the movie is a good introduction to the rest of the story (kind of like the book)
I agree that it is great, but I can also imagine others having the complete opposite opinion. It's certainly a direction you don't expect the series to take, just from the first one or two :-)
Dune was the only book for which I had trouble keeping track of what's going on as I'm reading. It's like the writing didn't invoke any mental images, some of the characters were interchangeable in my head and I had to constantly reread paragraphs to figure out what's happening.
The movie was an okay adaption but it's not a great experience to leave the cinema halfway through a movie and maybe see the second half in a couple of years.
Whilst Dune brought a lot of fantastic concepts to sci-fi, I also sometimes feel like it brought one of the worst ideas to the genre as well; make up a load of random words so everything feels more alien.
Its all made worse by the fact that, in an effort to rid the book of stilted exposition, the meanings of the words are explained once or twice in passing mentions, and seem to be replacements for real words fairly arbitrarily (you try to remember one word only to find its never mentioned again, another it turns out is vital to the plot).
Though I guess that is to be expected of anything which has has such a vast influence on a genre, no book is perfect.
From a bit of research this does appear to be true, at least partially, although the meanings are also a bit different.
Either way, the affect was the same, both in terms of how it influenced others and how it felt to read.
Though it does make me wonder how it treats the arabic translations. The obvious answer would be to keep the words the same, but if thats the case then the use of different languages would seem a bit arbitrary. Maybe English words are used in the Arabic translations (though I doubt it)
> Maybe English words are used in the Arabic translations (though I doubt it)
It wouldn't make much sense, because the Fremen are Arab-inspired, or at least, Middle Eastern. Arrakis is a desert planet toyed with by colonial powers. Any other interpretation would change the work so much it would become a completely different book.
I thought it would be fine to watch on HBO Max but I’m glad I didn’t. The sound adds to the scale of the movie in a way that I don’t think is possible at home without a serious system.
Saw it in Dolby Cinema which, I think, is an IMAX competitor.
Dolby Cinema uses similar tech to IMAX Laser (Dolby is technically superior but arguably not at a level humans would notice in practice), both of which are superior to non-laser IMAX or any other theater type. The main difference is IMAX has a taller aspect ratio, which is probably worth it for movies shot in that format.
The sound vibrations were nice, but that's the best thing I can say about the IMAX version.
I watched it first on a smaller theater screen, and found I was much more able to focus on small details and contrasts. I enjoyed the IMAX version a lot less: sure, you are immersed in the movie, the soundtrack is terrific (and sounds less out-of-place sometimes). But I found it hard to focus on the movie, being reduced to a passive viewer.
I just caught a lot more details in my non-IMAX screening, that I completely missed the second time. When I recall scenes, I think those are from my first screening. I admit I don't know if my opinion were reversed had I seen it on IMAX first, but overall I'm not sold. Plus the ticket was more than twice the price (which I gladly give to fund the second movie -- I wish that made "pirating" legal for me).
It was pretty good in IMAX given the grand score and cinematography but it was actually the movie experience that convinced me on average I get better experience at home.
Cutting off the few % of worst experiences + extra freedom by watching at home is well worth sacrificing a smallish (for me) comparatively improvement from watching at the cinema.
this is the most critical thing to remember about this movie and cannot be repeated enough. unless you have a top 1% home theater setup, you should see this in IMAX.
i'm seeing a lot of bad reviews from people who obviously watched it at home on a mediocre TV set in a living room. this movie deserves better.
Even if you have a top 1% home theater set up (and I do), the HBO Max release uses the cinematic aspect ratio (2.40:1?) with giant letterboxes top and bottom throughout, which cuts out a giant proportion out of the scenes filmed on IMAX cameras. I watched both a day apart, and the home video release is barely the same film (I exaggerate, but it's almost true).
Every time I go to the cinema in the past few years I feel assaulted by how loud the explosions and screaming are - Dune was no exception. I don't know if I'm getting old or other people just enjoy unhealthy noise levels.
I haven't seen the movie yet (and to be honest probably wont for some time) but this gives me the same apprehension I've had for it for the past year or so.
Half of the shots look perfect, exactly as I want from Dune. The other half look like quite boring, modern big budget sci-fi movie. The trailer had the same effect, some of the costume design was fantastic, but the ships looked a bit dull and the cinematic orchestral score is a pretty big red flag to me. Not that it sounds bad, it just doesn't sound all that memorable or interesting. A little bit like the "default" horror movie trailer music you here, its not nessecarily bad or unfitting, it just tells you a lot about how much the movie is pushing the boundaries of the genre.
The soundtrack isn't all orchestral - there's a good amount of diversity in its instruments that are used to serve the story well. I really enjoyed it, apart from the standard-issue Zimmer BWAH accompanying every story beat.
I thought that the soundtrack was the most forgettable part of the movie. It's like they reused half the music from Dunkirk. There's no theme to the film that's stuck in your head after you leave the theater, nothing else special about it. It feels like filler
In case the creator of the site is reading: The bullfighting statue is most likely an analogy regarding the conflict with the harkonnen.
The harkonnen name stems apparently from Härkönen which derives from the finnish name for ox. In the movie Leto says that his father already practiced bullfighting, which could be a hint towards the ongoing conflict between the houses.
It was pretty obvious for everybody that the "promotion" to Arrakis was a trap, including to Leto. They're never surprised the attack is coming, just that it's sooner and larger than expected. But he took it anyways, for duty and honor.
So in this respect he did exactly the same thing as his father - turned his back to the bull while performing for his people. And like a generation earlier, the bull turned out to be closer than expected.
I agree with you there. My comment was aimed at the subtext of the whole conversation regarding bullfighting. If i recall correctly that dialog is not in the books and the only reason to bring it up in the movie is to foreshadow the plot.
Agree,the movie is ok and well done within Villeneuve high standards, but as expected a 2 parts movie is not enough to describe the depths of the Dune book.
Maybe a trilogy or limited series would give more breath to describe the complex world and the size of the events; hopefully an extended version will bring some life into it.
The Dune miniseries is about 4,5 hours long. If the second Dune movie will have a similar length to the first one, the pair is going to be more than 5 hours long in total. So the movies wouldn't have to be more compressed. That surprised me a little.
Unfortunately the SyFy adaptation reeked of cheapness to me. Plot-wise better than Lynch's movie, but aesthetically terrible, and with some pretty bad acting too.
Eh, yes and no. A lot of the outdoor scenes and effects look pretty poor, presumably due to TV-level funding, but the interior set design and costume design are excellent IMHO. Also, the only bad actor was the one playing Paul; I thought everyone else was fine.
> An essential fact of the Dune universe — but one that goes unmentioned in the movie — is that there are no computers. Around 10,000 years before the events of Dune, a mass galactic revolt — the Butlerian Jihad — against “thinking machines” ended in a new commandment, adopted by the universe’s many religious sects: “Man may not be replaced.”
That part is very interesting, I wonder why it wasn't ever mentioned. It explains SO MANY things.
As far as I recall, it was never explained in the book either. At some point it clicked, but I don't think it was in the first book. Maybe it was explained in the glossary that people mention here, but my books didn't have one.
I tried the book (not a native English speaker) and couldn't go further than first 2 pages.
It's just filled with random words with no explanations (yet?)
On the other side of spectrum I remember reading reading Zelazny Chronicles of Amber, as a kid (translated to my language) and absolutely loved it
> It's just filled with random words with no explanations (yet?)
Do you mean Kwisatz Haderach and gom jabbar?
I mean the very first page has:
Paul lay awake wondering: What’s a gom jabbar?
And on the next page:
He mouthed her strange words: Gom jabbar … Kwisatz Haderach.
So, it's not like the book expects you to know what they mean. The protagonist himself doesn't know what they mean!
I totally appreciate differences in taste but giving up after two pages when the prose itself acknowledges that these are storage words seems a bit odd.
I was discussing this recently and I compared it to the Lord of the Rings. Both authors are writing novels in complex constructed worlds. Where they strongly differ is how they handle this. Tolkien mixes in a lot of explanation. The history of the Ring is told twice, once in Hobbiton and once in Rivendell and both times we receive the background information as explained to an audience surrogate character (Frodo).
Herbert goes the opposite way. He simply starts using terminology and referencing entities and histories as though you already know them. You pick it up by osmosis (and newer editions of the book, like the one I read, have a large glossary in the back to simplify matters), but never really get a thorough explanation of the world we are in. I think this is one of the reasons that the Dune Encyclopedia was so popular early on.
It's telling that Tolkien never really worked on the Middle Earth guidebooks, but Herbert did.
No, of course. Do you think that's what I'm saying?
Note there are very few languages used as inspiration in Dune. There's also a glossary.
There's also the fact many words, like Jihad, have entered the English-speaking world knowledge (note: when I read the word "Jihad" in Dune, in my teenage years, I thought it was a made up scifi word! And so with many other Arabic words in the text; I also failed to make the connection of "Zensunni" with "Zen" and "Sunni", etc. I still enjoyed the novel immensely).
As a general rule, do foreign words tend to baffle you in English prose? They don't confuse me in either Spanish literature -- my native tongue -- nor English, my second language.
Having an at least passing knowledge of other languages and cultures will make reading any given novel, in any given language, more enjoyable. You don't have to know the whole languages or cultures of the world.
I was mostly kidding, I also speak English as a second language. It's just the mild gripe that using foreign words as made up words that aren't made up words is a workaround hack for this issue https://xkcd.com/483
Like the characters in a fictional sci-fi story 20k years in the future obviously aren't speaking the language you're reading the story in. It just feels like bad translation.
Ah, good point. Though I don't think there's an overuse of made up words, and most are actual non-English words.
I like that in the (otherwise mediocre) "Nightfall" novel by Asimov and Silverberg, the preface states "we are going to use English words because alien words are stupid. Please understand the characters are aliens and are not actually speaking in English. If it makes you happy, substitute "mouth" for "lrrrvkr" and "eyelids" for "ktkskssrrsch") :P
The characters of the Dune universe do come from Earth though, and it's clear Herbert was fascinated by the Middle East to the point Arrakis is The Middle East in Space.
Yep, that's mostly what I'm talking about as you said with Nightfall. It's often unnecessary for its own sake imo.
It's true that Dune is based on that, but languages don't really stay the same. Middle English from 500 years ago is barely readable today. Latin was transformed into French, Spanish, Italian, etc. in a mere 2000 years. None of us can really imagine what would happen in 10 times the timespan, especially with cultures living very separated on different planets which would lead to different dialects and eventually completely separate languages over time.
It would still be rooted in the same principle, so the languages wouldn't be completely alien but they sure wouldn't be possible to understand for someone living today.
This is why _A Deepness in the Sky_ is such a great book.
The reason that you can read it in English, and understand the motivations of the aliens and view them as people at all, suddenly becomes a huge part of the plot.
Strong disagree. Do you find words from other languages, words sometimes mentioned in news articles (e.g. "Jihad") to be random "for all practical purposes"?
I get what you mean, but I still disagree. "Jihad" is a poor example, because it is essentially a word in the English dictionary too.
Say, we use this as a made-up example: "shay' tayir". Do any of the words mean anything to you? If you don't speak Arabic, I doubt it. I just used Google Translate to translate "flying thing" to Arabic (no idea how it sounds to a native speaker). There's a limit to what sounds familiar, and when you cross that limit, you might just randomly make up words and the result would be the same for most people.
I've tried to read the book a few times but have never succeeded. Last weekend I watched the movie at home and absolutely loved it. I only wish part two was available.
For me, this movie is one of the few book-based movies that is significantly better than the book.
I think it is so essential that people see the movie in a proper theater with surround sound rather than on a computer screen via HBO max. The soundtrack (which is some of Hans Zimmer's most ambitious work) and visuals won't be appreciated otherwise. All things considered, I thought this movie was a great effort - it is really encouraging to see $165M spent on actual art rather than boring regurgitations from marvel.
I think they're face dancers contracted to help heal the Baron. I think it's a nice way of introducing the face dancers into the story visually.
I really liked the film despite it's length and Villeneuvery.
There were quite a few things that bothered me though, which I'm surprised were not discussed in the blog. (My memory of the book is now very old, so I could just be wrong on some of these).
1. The combat was all wrong. I saw las guns being used in various places, which would have been suicide with everyone running around with personal shields. The fact that the knife needs to travel slowly through the shield seemed as far as I could tell to only occur when it made for a good visual and most of the time was ignored. Sure, it would have been hard to make visually interesting fight scenes given the constraints, but solving problems like that is what being a genius director is all about.
2. Not showing Paul cry over the killing felt like a real Hollywood move - the action hero does lots of killing without it bothering him, and we don't want to get too depressed at this point in the film. But actually Paul is a real person, and a good person, and good real people generally don't like killing even when necessary, and this is his first kill, and the shedding of water for his victim is one of the things that gets the Fremen to start to believe that he is someone different to what they're used to.
3. I was irritated early on by people unsheathing and resheathing crysknifes without them tasting blood, (e.g. in the gift to Jessica scene), but then they do cut themselves in the later scene, so maybe there's some sort of explanation?
4. The blog post picked up that Feyd-Rautha is a key character to understanding the Bene Gesserit, so it was weird that he wasn't introduced.
5. Dune just didn't feel that hot. The planet from Pitch Black felt way hotter. They keep saying that Dune will kill you and then just seem to wander around in full dress not seeming all that bothered.
6. The timeline feels wrong. The film makes it feel as if the invasion is on like Day 2. This would make no sense.
6. Extremely cringe final line 'this is only the beginning', weird obsession with saying 'desert power'.
>The book suggests that the Dune men have some contact (even friendship) with Fremen, but they don’t seem to be Fremen themselves, which presents an intriguing possibility. An alliance between the extractive workers and the indigenous population on Arrakis seems like it would be an incredibly powerful coalition, one that could strategically control the entirety of imperial spice production.
Tell me you no nothing about the realities of oilfield work without directly saying you know nothing of the realities of oilfield work. But seriously, the author of the article had answered there own question in a blurb above when he talks about how the Fremen want to terraform the planet which will result in the death of the spice trade. The Dune men are basically sci-fi rig workers, they are there to extract spice and make money, they don't hate the locals but they certainly won't put the locals needs above there own. One only need to look at the relationship between rig workers and First Nations peoples in Northern Alberta/BC to see how any attempt at a alliance would work out.
I love annotating shows and movies, several of my friends looked at me so strangely when I was taking notes while watching NGE but sometimes the plot is so complicated it necessitates it to fully understand and appreciate it. The first watch is always regular though, if I come out confused I'll rewatch it.
> Basically any quibbles or hesitations are erased by images like the above, of the Bene Gesserit departing that spaceship, and about which I can only say: That’s fucking sick as hell. This shit rules.
“Jihad” doesn’t necessarily mean “holy war”. The better translation is “struggle” (which can be external like a physical fight OR internal against oneself and their desires)
I have read the book so the movie was nice for me. I think what this movie would have benefited from is a prequel. Setup the background and then come to the present movie.
This is a great supplement to anyone who didn’t read the book but saw the movie. That said, the book would probably be even better for that.