On the one hand, WSL has made Windows truly viable as a developer platform. But on the other hand, this sort of aggressive marketing bullshit makes it such an unfriendly place to be. I want my computer to treat me as an adult. Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave.
I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit. But I guess my eyeballs are more valuable than my dollars. In that case, MS will get neither.
I moved back to Linux two months ago because of shit like this. Good riddance. Thankfully wine acts as the WSL for Linux, and makes the migration possible.
> I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit.
That's kinda what I felt this Pro version was for, back in the good old days that would get you extra features useful for power users, but then recently they pulled this:
> New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account
Basically the last credibility they had with me, with all the linux and open source things they've been doing since ballmer is gone. So uh yeah thanks microsoft, imma stay with Debian+Cinnamon a bit longer here o/
Microsoft's being really aggressive now it seems. Won't even allow you to install Windows Pro without having an internet connection AND a Microsoft account? They seem adamant to keep as many people as they can on Windows 10.
Hmm, this wasn't true for me. I just did a fresh install of Windows 11 Pro, and I wasn't required to have a Microsoft account...I did however install from a Windows 11 N source, and updated the license to my Education key shortly after installation.
> New Windows 11 Pro installations will require Microsoft account
I don’t really understand why this is a problem for you, let alone such a major problem. Takes two seconds to set up an account. I don’t even use Windows and I already have one!
It's perfectly natural to not want to have an account even if it's trivial to make, and even if you already have one, it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account.
It's also a reasonable desire to have your computer local authentication be completely separate any from Microsoft service, ensuring that the events are private and don't even get communicated to Microsoft, much less being able to circumvent local authentication by anyone who is in control of that cloud account.
> it's a basic privacy desire to refuse to link your computer to this account
Seems a bit tin-foil in these days.
Which is a fine preference for an individual if they’re into that scene, but you can understand why Microsoft doesn’t care about such a tiny proportion of society.
I find it amazing that you can say such a thing with a serious face. Time after time, we learn that the question isn't "are you paranoid", it's "are you paranoid enough". State actors trying to get your data, hackers trying to get and sell your data, hackers trying to lock down your computer and blackmail you; the list goes on and on. The less "connections" you have to third party services, the safer you are.
Locking your car door is not going to prevent someone from stealing things in it if they choose do. However, it will make it more difficult for them. Every vector by which we can reduce our vulnerability makes us safer. The goal is to be "safer", not "safe".
We can generate power to feed the world off the anger and resentment you're building right now. Partner up with me and we can submit this to YC. I'll give you 50%.
These days? Surely these days it is beyond any reasonable doubt that not only were a lot of the tin-foil fashionistas right all along but also the suggested dangers of modern always-connected technology do now actually harm real people in real ways quite often. Just look at the subject of this very discussion.
The most disturbing thing is that it's still only a relatively small proportion of society who will actively try to avoid the trap. From my own experience it's not even that the others don't care -- plenty of them are well aware of what is being done to them and they don't like it -- but they think the alternatives are just as bad and they're (reasonably enough) not willing to become digital hermits who are disconnected from normal life just to avoid the likes of Microsoft, Google and Apple.
Does anyone not have genuine security concerns given how expansive and personal computing has become?
We’re not talking about a single app or website. MS is a trillion dollar corporation that controls both the OS and in many cases the hardware layer.
The “stock” version has unjustifiable defaults and I quit using Windows myself a few years ago due to exactly the issues people in this thread are complaining about.
I just want to say that I admire your dedication to your position, as devils advocate here. Even if your justifications for these are all basically "so what who doesn't mind police doing a little searchypooo at random what's the harm, you're not doing anything wrong right? It doesnt have to be a problem just lettem touch your weewee a little"
Because it's what comes on the computer they bought from the store and because they don't know enough to do any different? Most people aren't tech experts. They buy a computer to do stuff and they follow the instructions in front of them or maybe ask someone they know for help.
Congratulations. You strawmanned. So where does the heap fallacy start kicking in? Because every feature I see delivered seems more tuned for keeping a PM working than actually making the user's life any easier.
They gave up every pretense of gaining or humoring "consent" when the implemented Cortana's little "you need to agree to this or, ya know, no windows" bs.
The problem isn't the set up process. It's the practice of having to have one.
I don't even care if I have a MS account or not but I really don't want it linked to my own computer. It means someone with access to my MS account can access my computer too, and it means Microsoft can collate all my recorded telemetry activity to my identity.
If your OS installation is bound to an account, and this account is blocked for some reason (which is not too hard to imagine, since on HN there is a post about such things happening twice a week) - what may be the consequences of this?
I've been totally ok with folks getting booted from twitter/social media sites for various reasons. But access to fundamental resources like your own computer or primary email address is a different story. The rules need to be much more stringent there
You shouldn't lose your gmail account for being an asshole on youtube, and one shouldn't lose their access to their local computer even for commiting fraud on the MS app store (whatever it's called)
One should be able to get banned from gmail if you really break the rules of course, but great care needs to be taken, and the same care (and even more) to make sure you don't lose access to your own computer.
Imagine that all your files have been helpfully encrypted --- for your security, of course --- with a key that is bound to that account you can no longer use.
I'm not sure if this is possible or the default now on Windows, but it's common for mobile devices.
If the original commenter didn't want to use Windows anyway, then they've not lost anything. Presumably they did want to use Windows, and are not because of this issue, so they have lost some benefit they originally wanted, and gained nothing because their system was already controlled by MS. Hence it's pointless.
> In all the conversations, it comes out how powerless people feel. You might think that if a company decides to algorithmically block people, there is a support department that can easily reverse mistakes, but that is not true. The department that deals with it is hard to reach. Or, as one customer service rep told BroncoJasperado, "The only team that has access to this is the team that you can reach through the form you already filled out. They are also not reachable by phone and are not located in an office that you can visit."
These are paying customers of Microsoft's.
Recently also a Dutch judge said MS had to unblock an account because MS could not provide the evidence why it was blocked. Something about american laws and child pornography that was allegedly stored on the account (I can look up the article if you want).
In most cases, the judge just rules it's fine because they're a commercial service and they are under no obligation to have you as a customer. You have to sue to even hear as much as "the cause was X" (even if they then can't/won't/don't provide X as evidence). There is little to no recourse.
A typical user whose MS account is banned might lose access to:
- Their game collection in Xbox / game pass
- All documents, pictures, etc. in OneDrive. A family member actually has all documents for their business on OneDrive because there is this history thing (can't permanently remove things by accident), MS guarantees your backups, it's all hands-off and super safe. On my recommendation, they did end up making an offline backup just in case... but I imagine that for every person like that family member, there are also a hundred business owners that would simply lose their business data.
- Microsoft Office products bought via 365
- Presumably purchases on the microsoft app store, but last I checked it contained only a few dummy apps and had horrible UX so I don't know how much this is used now
- Your email on Outlook.com
- And now also their computer? What is this, ransomware?
So for me, my Microsoft account being banned (one of probably a dozen by now) would have as impact that I can't play a game anymore that I paid for. I'd be pissed but it gets so much worse if you're a Windows user.
And it's not just MS, it's also Google (there the worst I could lose is a Youtube account where I've uploaded a few unpopular videos over the past decade), Facebook, etc.
>Since it increasingly doesn't, I did the adult thing and walked away. If a relationship turns abusive, one must leave.
I'm happy how you formulated this thought. I feel the same way. I don't deserve this level of distrust and micromanagement in my own digital home. In my opinion a Professional edition that really works like one would solve this issue for real but again, my conclusion is the same, that the end goal must not be to make a good operating system.
Linux is a haven compared to the state of things and especially in this regard. And Wine is a wonder.
You can obtain (in your preferred way) a copy of Windows 10 LTSC (IoT optional). I run it, and can develop, do administrative work, play games, and more. I have not had any issues with it. I think there's some littered telemetry but man, I just deal with it.
LTSC is unfortunately no longer the privacy bastion it used to be (especially in the LTSB days).
It now has the same choice of (only a little / very much) telemetry that regular windows has, has the ability to link microsoft accounts etc. The only real advantage is that they don't really push any new things to it.
I would love to be able to pay for "Windows Professional" or something to get rid of this bullshit. But I guess my eyeballs are more valuable than my dollars. In that case, MS will get neither.
I moved back to Linux two months ago because of shit like this. Good riddance. Thankfully wine acts as the WSL for Linux, and makes the migration possible.