> That doesn’t really solve the problem though because “inciting hatred” is subjective.
Lots of laws are subjective to some degree (And the degree here is really not very high here), that is absolutely normal and not problematic. For example, in order to decide whether someone was acting negligent, something called the "reasonable person standard" is used in US jurisprudence.
> For example, there are people who would say that anyone who disagrees with the fat acceptance movement is guilty of “inciting hatred” against fat people.
That is a silly strawman. Because it really doesn't matter what some unspecified "people" on the internet say on Twitter. What matters is what a judge says after carefuly consideration of the specific circumstances and possibly precedence cases, and possibly other judges on appeal.
> Yet I would argue that we need to leave the door open to these kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Otherwise, people will be afraid to speak their minds because they don’t know if they’ve crossed the line.
The line is not nearly as blurry as you make it out to be, nor is it difficult to stay well away from it.
> Also, how do you define “capable of disturbing the public peace”?
"public peace" has been defined in case law and commentaries as the peaceful coexistence of the population, free of fear of violence or lawlessness. "capable of" (geeignet) is a recurring term in German jurisprudence and means that an action is realistically fit to achieve something, considering the concrete circumstances of the case.
Speech is far more political than a negligence case. You really can’t expect to apply the same methodology and have it work just as well. This is one of those cases where I think we just need to accept that bad people will say bad things sometimes. Free speech is way too important and if the law goes too far it’s very difficult to change it.
My example wasn’t meant to be a straw man. I just think defining hate speech is extremely difficult and sometimes unpopular things need to be said in order to improve society.
Also, it’s not just “people on twitter”. I’m so sick of people dismissing these things using that framing. No, these people have power. The woke mob has power. They don’t like free speech and I guarantee you that if we implemented hate speech laws people will fight to enshrine their ideologies into law.
> Speech is far more political than a negligence case. You really can’t expect to apply the same methodology and have it work just as well.
I really don't see why that would make a difference.
> I just think defining hate speech is extremely difficult
Well, I have given you a definition that has been working quite well in Germany for decades.
> and sometimes unpopular things need to be said in order to improve society.
Which is why nobody is proposing to ban "unpopular things".
> No, these people have power. The woke mob has power.
Can you name a single person that "woke mob" has killed? Because I can name dozens upon dozens of people killed by people radicalized on the internet through things that could be curbed by sensible laws such as the one I referred to.
> They don’t like free speech and I guarantee you that if we implemented hate speech laws people will fight to enshrine their ideologies into law.
Yeah, and others will fight to have the laws differently. That's called democracy.
The rate of male suicide is over 3x higher than women. In 2020 white males accounted for 70% of suicides.
Do you think that’s because white men just looooove to kill themselves? Or perhaps it’s at least partly because men receive zero support because the woke mob hates them?
Meanwhile we have woke individuals like yourself focusing on a small number of violent acts performed by the most extreme individuals.
Where’s your empathy for the vast, vast majority who don’t commit these violent acts?
Also, did it ever occur to you that male suicides and those violent acts you mentioned are linked? Call me crazy but perhaps we are seeing male pain and suffering expressed in different ways. Violence pointed inwards and some pointed outwards.
And your solution is to take these hateful ideologies and enshrine them into law? Because, again, that’s exactly what will happen.
Lots of laws are subjective to some degree (And the degree here is really not very high here), that is absolutely normal and not problematic. For example, in order to decide whether someone was acting negligent, something called the "reasonable person standard" is used in US jurisprudence.
> For example, there are people who would say that anyone who disagrees with the fat acceptance movement is guilty of “inciting hatred” against fat people.
That is a silly strawman. Because it really doesn't matter what some unspecified "people" on the internet say on Twitter. What matters is what a judge says after carefuly consideration of the specific circumstances and possibly precedence cases, and possibly other judges on appeal.
> Yet I would argue that we need to leave the door open to these kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Otherwise, people will be afraid to speak their minds because they don’t know if they’ve crossed the line.
The line is not nearly as blurry as you make it out to be, nor is it difficult to stay well away from it.
> Also, how do you define “capable of disturbing the public peace”?
"public peace" has been defined in case law and commentaries as the peaceful coexistence of the population, free of fear of violence or lawlessness. "capable of" (geeignet) is a recurring term in German jurisprudence and means that an action is realistically fit to achieve something, considering the concrete circumstances of the case.