Well according to some people on HN, it's all good and dandy. China is no worse than the US is the latest version of moral relativism we have to deal with. So if they have your data, it's all okay.
The way I see it as an European is that basically everything China does, the US does or has done, and to me they are both foreign powers. If I don't have qualms about using instagram why should I have qualms about using tiktok.
How is that more than a superficial label if western democracies behave like big hypocrites?
- Starting dubious wars against foreign nations? We've had Afghanistan and Iraq.
- Spying on and criminalizing citizens? We're having Five Eyes and possibly much more than we don't know about.
- Treating whistleblowers against our standards of human rights? We're having Manning, Snowden and Assange. And probably many more we haven't heard about.
I'm not repeating some whataboutisms trying to relativize, e.g., the horrible attack of Russia against Ukraine or the Chinese Social Scoring system. I'm just asking about the meaning of "democracy" in the Western world is, if our gov'ts are sh*tting on our values any time they need.
Can you explain how Snowden or Assange are mistreated against our standards of human rights? Snowden hasn't been in the US and is in Russia for years, and when he was in the US, he was never treated wrongly. And Assange hid out in an embassy to dodge charges. If you break the law, get people killed, push propaganda from Russia, you're going to have to face a Jury of your peers. Unlike China where you just get disappeared, we have a court system where you can get a trial by jury.
I share similar views, and certainly would be a lot more concerned if my government had access to all my personal data and communications, rather than the Chinese one, which very likely doesn't give a damn about who I am.
Yes, every country has its share of dirty history to be ashamed of, but the difference with places like China, Russia and others is that in our "western" countries we can (still) as citizens criticize the powers without expecting to be detained, have the house raided, lose our jobs and whatnot. Things may change in the future in my country, especially after the new wave of neofascist crooks that went in power lately, but we're not yet at that point.
Well for one thing the US has proven they are willing to come to your aid. You know, something called WW2 that you guys started. So maybe, I dunno, get a clue about history and who your allies are? It's kind of insulting to say that you see no difference to be honest. Next time maybe we won't show up when ya'll start shooting each other and doing genocide.
It's not about really about if they are worse. China having all my Tik Tok data is preferable then the US having any of my data. China isn't going to come disappear me in the US. The US might.
> China having all my Tik Tok data is preferable then the US having any of my data. China isn't going to come disappear me in the US. The US might.
No. It is worse in China. Especially with the 'police stations' and applying their national security law to activists overseas. Here one example example:
A TikTok user in Hong Kong protesting against the CCP has it worse than one protesting against the US government. The difference is obvious:
In the US you are free to peacefully protest against the US government which that is protected by the 1st amendment in the US constitution.
China on the other hand can use it's national security law (and in Hong Kong) to get activists overseas and disappear you. [0] Given that China has access to ByteDance's data, I don't think you would want to be the user who attempted to protest against the CCP in HK and currently be on the run.
It's not preferable. The problem in this line of argumentation is that it highlights the problems of an imperfect system (a big western democracy) and then extends that to qualify the whole.
The US has so many problems, I agree, but what big democracy doesn't? Does the UK have problems? Yes. Does France? Yes. Does India? Yes. Because the US is so powerful, and has used this power for questionable purposes (as well as good purposes), people create a caricature of the country and ignore that we have things like constitutional protections, freedom of speech, mechanisms to sue the government and prevail.
Just to detail one of my examples above, freedom of speech. Many people will go and give examples of why the US has no true freedom of speech. Most of these people have never lived in a place which actually has no freedom of speech! For instance, I've bought many highly critical books of the US government, talked about them in public, visited libraries to read these books. In a less free country, this can, and often does get you arrested or killed, assuming that you were able to find the books to begin with, more often you won't even have access to any real criticism of the government.
I don't want any country storing my personal data. But if I'd pick between the US or China, AT LEAST there is a minimum of transparency and rule of law (and it's actually a lot more than "minimum", the real protections are significant) regarding how this data is used in the US.
People should be more concerned about their own government spying on it's citizens that they should be about the CCP having that same data.
As a subject to your government's surveillance regime, you are at risk of losing more rights and freedoms than you are to foreign surveillance(unless that foreign surveillance is a proxy for your own goverment).
It's not that, and it's not okay. It's just less impactful if a foreign government has your data vs the one that can actually apply meaningful consequences if they don't like what they see.
