Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
Why is the plural form of "house" not "hice"? (2016) (english.stackexchange.com)
64 points by occamschainsaw on Nov 5, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 68 comments


And the answer is because originally house was neuter and mouse & louse were feminine, in previous iterations of the language. Slightly buried in there.

And Haus is still neuter in German, while Maus and Laus are feminine.


Language is crazy. I'm always learning. This is the first time I realized what it means to "neuter" a dog.


And neither a neutered male nor a spayed female are actually sexless--you still refer to them as "he" and "she". They are merely reproductively disabled.

On a side note, I just learned that 'neutral' comes from the Latin word 'neuter' (meaning 'neither').


i used to have a cat that i never gendered in speech. of course the cat didn't care, but hilariously some people would feel the need to ask directly about my cat's genitals


they also show a similar difference in plural: Häuser vs Mäuse and Läuse


is that related to the strange "r" plural/dual in German?


And the plural of "spouse" not "spice"?


Your life might have some spice in it if you have more than one spouse. Especially if they don’t know about the other ones.


Even more so once they do


I saw this on LoadingReadyRun in 2009: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZsgzLYavR0&t=9s


Your spouse isn't the spice of your life?


Also interesting that the noun "house" is pronounced differently than the verb "to house".


As a non-native speaker: how is it pronounced differently?


The 's' is voiced in the verb and voiceless in the noun, at least in my midland accent, which is probably closer to American TV's accents. By 'voiced', I mean your vocal chords vibrate and make a sound for it. But the lip/teeth/tongue are the same.* There are several noun/verb words where the pronunciation changes and lots where the stress changes. Another pronunciation change example that I can think of right now is 'close': The noun and the verb do the same thing with final sound.

The voiced 's' is a 'z' sound. And English sadly doesn't use a different letter here.

*In simple terms. I think these form an identical mouth shape, but there's probably a dialect where it doesn't. And some bizarre cases where it doesn't. Because English. And judging from another comment from someone from Michigan, they say both the same?? Also 'housing' for me uses a voiced s, but I think I've heard 'housing' both ways.


You pronounce house like “mouse”, but “to house” is pronounced like “hows”, as in “how’s it going?”.


To me, every instance of "house" in the above sentence sound the exact same and perfect ryhme with mouse. Neiher "house" or "to house" sounds like "hows".

I'm in the Southeastern Michigan area if that explains anything.

edit: Using barrkel's comparison in a sibling thread - "house" and "to house" are both howce and "hows" is "howz".

edit2: Further thinking leads me to conclude I have heard others use "howz" for "to house" around me and if I were speaking quickly that may be how I would say it. Just reading those sentences to myself internally at my own speed uses the howce.


How do you say "we need to house new immigrants"?

How do you pronounce "department of housing and urban development"?


"Housing" esposes more of the howz sound. The first is just howce.

Thinking about this more... I just realized something. I struggled with a lisp and speech therapy in grade school. I distinctly remember a lesson where I was being instructed on how certain words ending in "s" actually sound like "z" like "apples" and I was pronouncing it without the z.

I am thinking this may just be related to that.


I was just trying to illustrate it better. I think the majority will say "howz new immigrants."

There are a few weird "same-spelling" words. You can refuse to throw refuse in the trash can. You can estimate how many estimates you might get. But I suspect that you're not a suspect in this case. But, if you get close, I'll close this thread.


A large number of those are called heteronyms which include a noun and a verb, the noun getting the stress on the first syllable while the verb receives the stress on the second. But yes I agree.


Didn't the muppets do a skit about s? ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I9652HzGWE

Or maybe it was the Electric Company's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMuI6WI6MJU

Nothing beats Tom Lehrer's song about Silent E:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91BQqdNOUxs


This thread is also getting into such detail that people's regional accents will start to come into play as to how they pronounce things. "Pin" vs "pen," etc.


That's why I include my region whenever speaking about linguistics!


The department of housing and urban development needs to make new houses to house new immigrants.

The department of <howzing> and urban development needs to make new <howsses> to <howz> new immigrants.


I'm not sure that's right, if the "z"-pronounciation is for verbs. I would think the Department of Housing is talking about "housing" as a noun, rather than "housing" in a verby-way. Like the "department of transportation". You can transport something, but you don't transportation something. Or "Department of Education" isn't educationing people, it's educating people.

Bastard language this is.


> I'm not sure that's right, if the "z"-pronounciation is for verbs.

It is right. The rule you are stating is an overgeneralization; it is correct for specifically distinguishing the verb forms “house” and “houses” from the singular and plural noun forms “house” and “houses”, but not really otherwise (maybe by derivation, in that “housing” is “that which houses”, but...)


We need to mouse new immigrants

Department of mousing and urban development


You're going to hate this, but the noun and verb form of mouse are pronounced the same,

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/eng...

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/eng...


Howz and howzing.


And Houston is only pronounced like house if you're in NY


Or in Scotland, and the last syllable is still pronounced differently (ton instead of tun).


And not Who-ston? -

or is it, Hue-ston?


Hue's ton. It's a unit of weight.

House-ton, we have a problem. --Jim Lovell

House-ton, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed. --Neil Armstrong

I feel like I'm in some alternate universe ala PK Dick where things are the same with slight twists. This one is where odd pronunciations are the norm. Like going to the Rodeo to see the cattle.


To house is pronounced "to howz", house is pronounced "howce".


Similar to the change in stress for "perfect" and "to perfect".


I never noticed that, but you're right.

How much else is there I never noticed???


Remind me of how in modern Irish, a prefixed t- appears before vowels in masculine nominative singular nouns. It relates to Proto-Celtic masculine nominative singular article *sindos. The t- is what remains of the d and s from Proto-Celtic: an t-athair - the father an t-úll - the apple an t-each - the horse an t-ospidéal - the hospital


> In English, the regular pluralising pattern is adding /z/ (with some assimilation and epenthesis rules). Everything else is irregular.

Meanwhile, the plural of fish is both fish (multiple of the same species) and fishes (more than one species).


Because English is a cut-put language, and also an argue-vague one.


And the singular form of dice is not douse.


I have seen it said that the use of "mouses" is correct for the plural of "mouse", but only when referring to the computer pointing device. I suspect that trend may have originally come from manufacturers in the East.


Antennae for bugs. Antennas for hice and radios.


Here's that question in song form. Among others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ69ny57pR0


It would be a rouse for all the rice and we dont want that


I love that some people are asking the important questions


I'm tired of all the syntax inconsistencies with English, what language should I use for my next project?


Esperanto, some would say, but others would then argue that you'll have a lot of trouble finding developers.


How has their not been a successful synthetic language? It seems like something that would occur on the internet.


Kinda related. Hangul (the Korean writing/character system) was created in 1443 to solve a bunch of problems related to competing adapted character systems.

> the fourth king of the Joseon dynasty, Sejong the Great, personally created and promulgated a new alphabet.

> The Korean alphabet was designed so that people with little education could learn to read and write. A popular saying about the alphabet is, "A wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; even a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul#History


learning a language is hard. Unlike with PLs, learning a language in a vacuum for your own use is ... pretty difficult and hard to apply? And on top of that there are many "good enough" solutions.

English has a bunch of weird and confusing issues. But "English as a second language" is at least a variant that is stripped down, with far less weird idioms, and lets you get points across to people. "Correct" pronunciation (whatever that's worth) is also optional. Hard to beat!

I thought Esperanto did have some success though! And FWIW I think many language learning communities can thrive on a bunch of people using their second language. So maybe if someone makes a fun synthetic language it can totally work!


There's always some de facto lingua franca already around.


esperanto is very easy to learn though. so if you can't find developer who speak fluent english, then teaching them esperanto is still faster than getting them to improve their english.


It's open source. If you have problems, you're free to contribute or suggest changes.


Any language that no one uses.

As soon as spoken language is actually used by people who aren't laser focused on ensuring that they don't misuse words or relax pronunciations, the meanings of words will shift and accents will form. People will also invent slang, as people are naturally inclined to do, and some of that slang will stick around in common speech and be accepted as regular words.


This being HN.....

Rust, obviously


Latin. It's the only other language with similar levels of field-tested universal compatibility.


Disagree -- that's just a typical romantic view of that language. There's a reason Latin's been forked so many times.


C'mon, nobody speaks Latin per se these days.


But Latin has weird thing like apparatus and apparatus (long u) because it has been hopelessly corrupt by greek



The reliance on Chinese wordstock seems silly. Make a blend of Latin and Old Norse / Proto-Germanic / Icelandic, and you might have something surprisingly accessible for most speakers of descendants of PIE.


This looks really interesting, thank you for sharing.


> This question was marked to be a duplicate of "Goose"–"geese" vs. "moose"–"moose" and Why is the plural form of Moose not Meese?

Never change, SO, never change.


Who's old enough to know what cartoon character would always say meeses?


In my house we hate meeses to pieces


Well I mean the first answer in the linked ‘duplicate’ does also basically answer OP’s question so - on the one hand, yeah, but on the other hand, yyeeaahh


Here is the answer of ChatGPT4:

The plural forms of words in English, like "houses" for "house" and "mice" for "mouse," are the result of a complex history of the English language, which includes influences from many other languages and the way words were pronounced in the past.

Regular Plural Formation: The plural of "house" follows a regular pattern in modern English where we add an "-s" or "-es" to the end of most nouns to make them plural. This pattern is a simplified system that has become the standard in English.

Old English and Middle English: The plurals "mice" and "lice" come from Old English and Middle English times when the language had more complex rules for making nouns plural, often involving changing the vowel sound in the middle of the word. This type of change is known as "i-mutation" or "umlaut," which was a common grammatical feature in the Germanic languages that English descends from.

Irregular Plural Formation: Over time, as the language evolved, most of these complex forms were regularized to the simpler "-s" or "-es" ending, but some words, like "mouse" and "louse," retained their old plural forms. These are known as irregular plurals.

Standardization and Change: English has undergone significant standardization over the centuries, and the regular "-s" or "-es" ending has become the norm due to its simplicity and regularity. However, irregular forms persist due to historical usage and the conservative nature of language when it comes to frequently used words.

Thus, "houses" is a result of linguistic simplification and standardization, while "mice" and "lice" are remnants of older linguistic patterns that have been preserved in the language.


The way ChatGPT4 phrases an answer for this sort of a question absolves it of smug pretentiousness that is common to HN.

Whether or not its a correct answer, however...




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: