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$899 mini PC puts Snapdragon X Elite into a mini desktop for developers (arstechnica.com)
61 points by DeathArrow on May 26, 2024 | hide | past | favorite | 41 comments


Upstream Linux support for SDXE is making steady progress, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40422286

https://www.tomshardware.com/software/linux/qualcomm-goes-wh...

> Qualcomm has most of the critical functions working inside.. Linux 6.9.. critical functions include UEFI-based boot support along with all the standard bootloaders like Grub and system-d.. Functions that are being worked on for future iterations of Linux include additions to battery support, on-board display connectivity, external DisplayPort connectivity, sleep and wake-up functions on the GPU, camera support, video support, better CPU frequency support, and speaker/mic/headset enablement. These functions are expected to arrive in Linux 6.10 and 6.11.


Apple's ARM developer transition kit was a loaner "beta version" of an ARM Mac that you paid $500 for up front.

After you returned the hardware, you got a $500 credit that you could apply to any Apple hardware, including the shipping version of the M1 Macs.

Qualcomm and Microsoft don't seem as serious about getting as many developers as possible on board for the transition.


Apple offered a garbage deal to developers who spent $500 to receive an M1 DTK. They only increased the offer to $500 after getting a ton of blowback. https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2021/02/04/apple_demands_ret...


Thanks for the link,

"Apple, to smooth things over, is dangling $200 credit to be used against the purchase of an M1 Mac. Again, this hasn't been well received."

"After you returned the hardware, you got a $500 credit that you could apply to any Apple hardware, including the shipping version of the M1 Macs."

  We live [...]
  With rewritten histories and a fictional past
  - Master Race, New Model Army


Microsoft refused to offer warranty repairs for failed XBox 360 units, despite the issue being their own design flaw.

There were famously customers who had paid out of pocket for the same repair three or more times.

Should we still be claiming that Microsoft never changed their mind and decided to eat the cost of repairs, despite knowing the truth years later?

> On February 5, 2021, following developer backlash, Apple sent out another email that increased the discount code to US$500 and expanded the discount to be used on any other Apple devices. In addition, the code expired at the end of 2021, instead of May.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developer_Transition_Kit


"Should we still be claiming that Microsoft never changed their mind [...]?"

No don't claim that!


I’m not clear about which part of my comment you are trying to call bullshit on. I’d love clarity so that I can better defend my first hand experience.


Perhaps it wasn't clear to you that I replied to someone else's comment and not yours?


Oh, now I see. HN thread reply indentation is way too small on mobile devices, imho


Me: "Thanks for the link"

You: "I’m not clear about which part of my comment you are trying to call bullshit on"

Me: <Confused>


I think a big difference here is that everyone knew that Apple was going to completely replace Intel Macs and eventually phase out Rosetta 2, like they have with previous architecture changes.

For Microsoft this is going to be just an additional niche platform. Microsoft has tried this dozens of times in the past without success. Windows NT was originally intended to run on several architectures, such as Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC. I am not surprised that developers are very lukewarm about porting to Windows on ARM.


I'd say the difference is that Apple made an effort to keep costs down for developers looking to add support for their new architecture.

That $500 DTK loaner included some major amenities:

> code-level technical support, access to one-on-one labs with Apple engineers

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developer_Transition_Kit

Qualcomm and Microsoft don't even seem to be offering a major discount on the hardware.


I mean, compared to alternative ARM mini computers with 32GB of RAM and 512GB storage and comparable performance they're offering a several hundred dollar discount...


Microsoft and Qualcomm aren't even offering to sell hardware below cost, much less loaning hardware and then issuing a store credit for the full amount you paid to join the program.

It doesn't show anywhere near the same level of commitment to getting the software in their ecosystem ported over to their new architecture.


I don't think you get it.

You get to keep the hardware. $900 gets you the hardware forever. You don't send it back after a year to buy a similarly equipped model with a credit from the deposit you put down. You just get a 32GB 512GB roughly M2 Pro performing machine for $900. Apple wants $1700 for that!


Why should you have to buy another desktop computer just to do additional work to support Microsoft and Qualcomm's new platform?

Especially a computer that you know lacks widespread software support for a new instruction set.

A developer will already own a computer with high end specs. They don't need to be forced to buy an additional desktop that runs software under emulation... Slowly.


Why should you spend $500 to rent a desktop computer for a year just to do additional work for Apple? Remember you don't get that $500 back. At best it went towards another Apple device. So either way you're down $500 even if you don't keep it and don't replace it.

You buy a devkit because you want to support the platform and potentially think it's worth it.


> You buy a devkit because you want to support the platform

That is not how business decisions work.

Keeping the costs down as much as possible is Microsoft and Qualcomm's job, and they aren't stepping up.

They aren't even offering their hardware below cost.


I didn't mean support in a fanboy sense but a business sense and you know it which is why you clipped away the "potentially worth it" part.

Was the DTK rented below cost? Have proof of that? $500 to rent a screenless 2018 iPad Pro in 2020 (that would have been about what $1000 retail for that config?) seems like a shit deal.


> I didn't mean support in a fanboy sense

This is indeed exactly how your posts are coming across.

It's obvious that Apple took a loss on the DTK hardware because it was never for sale to the public.

Apple manufactured it, shipped it out to developers, and then issued a credit for the full cost of joining the program when the hardware was returned. They ended up with used hardware that couldn't be sold.

An obvious loss.

Microsoft isn't even bundling a copy of the ARM version of Visual Studio, which would have a marginal cost for them of pretty much zero.


Right, but Apple wants that money after funding an actual dev program to port code to that platform. This dev platform is going to be much higher risk than a consumer platform and might be something you want to give back.


The main selling point of this is that it has AI support, including microsoft recall specifically under the "Copilot+" branding. I am so ridiculously sick of AI being shoved into everything and microsoft's attempt at ridiculously intrusive spyware was the last straw for me. If I'm going to pay $900 for a computer, I might as well just get a real graphics card anyway.


I'd love to put linux on that. I'm gonna wait for reviews for it. If I'll see that linux can be installed on that I can see it became my main developer machine.


How am I supposed to distribute ARM Windows software?

AFAIK Windows doesn't have a concept of fat binaries. Making users manually choose the right download link is ugly and error prone.


Actively supported versions of windows still supports 4 architectures for apps (x86, x86-64, ARM, and ARM64) and long term at least 3 of those (both c86 and ARM64) aren't going away (32 bit as an install target is but not as an app type which you might need depending what your app does) so everything as a fat app isn't a great choice like it is on macOS where there are 2 options and long term there will be just 1.

That said you can still achieve something similar. Windows comes with the x86 emulation layer enabled by default on all system types so if your installer is packaged as x86 you can have it contain multiple install packages and select based on the system architecture. This is known as MSIX bundling. Alternatively for online installs the installer can just be the thing that grabs the right version for the machine and launches it.

Of course it's more work to create a fat app style bundle so most don't bother. The possibility is still there though.


They may want you to use appx/appxbundle? But if I recall correctly they come with some limitations (sandboxing, no install scripts).


Will it be able to run Linux?


The answer is "probably yes" unless they've done a ton of work to lock it down, which I wouldn't be surprised was also true.



I wonder how this will do as a server.


Mac mini killer it is not


Where did they claim it is?

It's the only reasonably powerful ARM dev PC that's not an Apple, take it as such.

Average Dell and Lenovos are also no MacBook "killers" yet they still sell and see them virtually everywhere.

You can make money without "killing" Apple. The market's big enough for several players.


It's a specialized developer tool, not a consumer product. It's literally named the "Snapdragon Dev Kit for Windows". Nobody thinks it's attempting to compete with the Mac Mini.


They should totally try to eventually compete with the Mac Mini, even if only via a clear product/vision roadmap. No one is going to develop for a dead platform.


But it still seems to be pretty competitive? Better specs for a significantly lower price $1,200 vs $900.


Why not? It is allegedly faster than the m3 with better battery life (but worse thermals). [1]

[1]: https://www.macworld.com/article/2313991/qualcomm-snapdragon...


Thermal output is where all the watts you pump into the CPU come back out. You can't have more thermal output from less wattage input or vice versa.

I believe the multi core performance claim in that the base M3 has 4+4 cores while the X Elite has 12. After that everything falls in line as "a much faster Qualcomm offering than before that's still a bit behind the competition". If it had released 2 CPU generations ago when they started talking about how fast it was it would have been more impressive.

I also believe the battery life claim in that if you put the laptop in airplane mode, then the screen all the way down, and run a video on loop it is fully possible it does this longer than Apple depending on how efficient the video decoder and ability to turn the rest off are. When it comes to actually using the laptop it'll be interesting what third party benchmarks say.


Nobody is measuring "total thermal output". That would dumb, because like you said that just corresponds 1:1 to battery usage. They're measuring how hot the device gets and how good it is at moving heat away from the critical parts of the device.


Depends on who it is for; I'd buy it once Linux support improves. A comparable Mac mini is $1000-1500.


Just the 24GB of memory (which is still less) is almost half the price of the Qualcomm dev kit, as long as the CPU is close enough it seems like a much better deal if you don't need MacOS (Linux support will probably be much better than Asahi when it comes out).


I think these will go the way of the Zune and Windows Mobile, but the money and resources Microsoft is throwing at this will benefit the Apple ecosystem so I am happy about it. Yay for better Windows inside a VM on Mac support.




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