I don't think the bohemians you alluded to were so much funded by nonprofits, as by the public at large. 50 years ago we had Bob Dylan as the poet laureate, more or less, of his generation. Today we've got Taylor Swift. Both got big record contracts. No knock against her, but if you want to talk about cultural decay, I think it's more of a demand-side problem. The market will elevate artists who the public are willing to pay for. Yes, a publisher or a producer can "make a market" for something, but Francis Ford Coppola can put $100M of his own money into an art piece and, evidently, no one currently will pay to see it.
The idea that nonprofits should prop up art has always been wrong, in a way. Artists since the Italian Renaissance have produced most of their greatest / most famous works for wealthy patrons, not because governments paid them to do it. (Unless you count the Vatican as a government).
What I'm trying to say is that all art arises from pop culture, and pop culture can engender the height of artistic excellence, if the culture itself has good taste and demands quality. Or, pop culture can be a pit of garbage if the culture has degraded. This is what is meant about the transition from "Ideal" Hellenistic art to art which embodied "Pathos" around the 4th Century BC.
We have transitioned in the past 50 years from a culture which strives for the ideal, to one which worships pathos. That may be the mark of a civilization in decline (based on a relatively limited number of historical examples). But the "fix" isn't more public funding for art that no one looks at or listens to. All great art arose from popular desire for it; you can't force it on a population, or keep it alive if there's no audience.
Is this really a "degradation" in popular taste, or is it a change in the demographics that dominate the demand side? While there's apparently been some studies on the demographics of Swifties, it's much more difficult to produce the same for Bob Dylan 50 years ago. My impression though is that the initial core demographics (driving the fame) of Bob Dylan's music were young adults of both sexes, while the initial demographics of Taylor Swift's music were teenagers, overwhelmingly female. The demographics have different interests, with the interests preferred by Dylan's demographics being considered deeper and more intellectual by the cultural zeitgeist. It makes sense that target demographics of popular music would have been older back in the day, since buying records required some sort of record player, which was a significant investment. Today, there's practically no investment to listen to music via a streaming service.
Mostly agreed, but imo Taylor Swift’s music trajectory is kinda similar to Beatles.
Swift’s fanbase has been mostly teenage girls, who now grew up, and now her concerts are filled with women in their 20s and 30s, as well as plenty of guys (though still a minority).
Beatle’s fanbase at the time of their rise to fame? Also predominantly teenage girls. Take a look at the photos from any of their concerts in the prime age. And then there are those infamous photos with crowds (that were almost entirely teenage girls) pretty much hysterically crying in the audience upon seeing their idols.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. It is probably a controversial take, but if anything, I would consider Taylor Swift’s core audience these days being way less “culty” and less homogeneous than that of the early Beatles (despite, indeed, being one of the most “culty” fanbases of the present times). And I am saying this as someone who is as far from a Swift fan as one can be. I only know a few of her top songs, and they are pretty catchy/fun, but I simply don’t have much interest in it overall. Can’t deny that she is doing a great job all around though.
Calling it now: a few decades down the road, Taylor Swift will exist in the cultural zeitgeist in a similar way to how Beatles are revered many decades after their breakup in the present times (assuming she stays on her current trajectory).
> Calling it now: a few decades down the road, Taylor Swift will exist in the cultural zeitgeist in a similar way to how Beatles are revered many decades after their breakup in the present times (assuming she stays on her current trajectory).
The Beatles, after getting early popularity with teenage girls via stuff like "She Loves you", "I wanna hold your hand" etc., moved on to more ambitious music for adults. Meanwhile, we're still waiting for Taylor Swift's equivalent of the White Album...
I think you're right. I'd add that it's sound to invest in a younger demographic when there are more young people, more customers, who are more impressionable, for a longer term return. With companies trying to get the most from their investment, I'd expect this strategy to drive the market towards less complex, and less interesting media.
Upvoted for being one of the best comments in the discussion I've read so far -- I'm sure there's something relevant going on that's similar enough to a transition from some sort of ideal to pathos.
But the part about nonprofits is possibly orthogonal to the issue and may even be wrong in the opposing direction. Why would pathos overtake everything? Honestly it's what I'd expect to happen in the wake of two simple developments:
1) most media engagement moves from text, which requires the engagement of the mind, to video/audio, which can run on a much higher volume of feels/vibes alone. I don't think it's a coincidence that we had a print culture up through a half century ago when there were popular poets (Dylan Thomas, Charles Bukowski, maybe even WH Auden) and now we get to your comment which, representative of the times, will subtly shift to popular performing songwriters as if they're the same thing.
Like one of Patrick Rothfuss' characters said: “Remember this, son, if you forget everything else. A poet is a musician who can't sing. Words have to find a man's mind before they can touch his heart, and some men's minds are woeful small targets. Music touches their hearts directly no matter how small or stubborn the mind of the man who listens.”
2) And that means when the market becomes the dominant social mediator, what finds its way through culture? What sells. What sells most broadly? What touches people's hearts. What touches people's hearts? Vibes/feels, or pathos, as you say. And then we do stupid things with our markets like Spotify that magnify the problem by eroding marginal success, bifurcating into go-pathos-big or go home as the option.
Your own comment is a great illustrator of just how much market-as-mediator is readily thought of as the way to understand the issue. Do we want other ideals? Then we need other cultural institutions that explore, circulate, and foster values/ideals beyond the market. And at least some of them would necessarily be non-profits. And while they'd need to go beyond subsidizing pre-popular work (including perhaps some never popular) and into various forms of popular education, subsidy would be part of what they'd do. There can't be an audience for something that is never produced.
Based on the comment’s reference to Bob Dylan, I imagine they were more discussing the 60s, so it would be helpful to see what were the top selling things 60 years ago in 1964.
The best selling album of 1964 was the soundtrack to the musical "Hello, Dolly!". The best selling single was "I Want to Hold Your Hand" by the Beatles. Dylan at least made it to the top album charts (as he did in 1974 and in every decade since) but not the top 100 singles chart. Barbara Streisand beat him out in 1964 too with "People" at #11.
There's a ton of great music on the top 100 singles chart from '64 ("I Get Around by the Beach Boys, "Where Did Our Love Go" and "Baby Love" by the Supremes, "Twist and Shout" by the Beatles, "The Girl from Ipanema" by Getz and Gilberto, "Little Honda" by the Hondells, "Leader of the Pack" by the Shangri-Las, "You Really Got Me" by the Kinks, "Louie Louie" by the Kingsmen, most importantly and influentially "Surfin' Bird" by the Trashmen), but not much poet laureate material. I guess the closest would be "House of the Rising Sun" by the Animals, there was a book written on the history of that song.
Most of the best popular music is repetitive, loud, stupid and obnoxious (see, for example, "Surfin' Bird"). Poet laureate type popular music is hard to pull off. Tom Waits did it, he would have gotten my nomination for United States Poet Laureate in the '80s and '90s. Taylor Swift sold more records with "1989" than Tom Waits has done in his entire career (14,000,000 for Swift's "1989", 4,000,000 for Tom Waits career to date).
Yes but at the same time the music industry exists as a capitalistic machine that forms public taste and interest through sheer force of marketing - it’s easier to have one mega artist like Taylor performing one huge show in every city to capture all of the disposable income for music in one go, rather than have lots of competing artists and dilution and effort to create a range of cultural product. Competition is a sin remember? The music industry understands this nowadays. “The public wants what the public gets” in the words of Paul Weller / The Jam. There isn’t a free market of music and ideas. The market is closed and offers only a small number of products, and everyone else has to stand outside of the market giving out their art for free.
For a while I had a website where I put my music, with a Stripe button for donations.
Now, I didn't make as much money as T.Swift, but I chalk that up my music being not quite as polished (still working on getting access to a multi-million dollar recording studio with a $10,000 microphone and $500,000 mixing console staffed by a team of world-class music producers, sound engineers and hit makers like her), not because some capitalist mega-machine is keeping me down.
I guess I'm more of a believer in the 1,000 true fans [0] mindset.
Yeah, that's the problem if we're talking about cultural relavance. We all have accedd to 24/7 on demand media, and that inevitably means we will form our on cultural bubbles based on taste, community, etc. There really isn't any single TV show these days that everybody watched compared to Breaking back in the '10's, or The Wire in the 00's, or Friends in the 90's.
We're a culture more specialzied than ever and lonlier than ever. Especially if you don't like Sports (pretty much the last remaining "cultural media"). That also makes it much harder to get the 1000 true fans you linked to (interesting read, thanks!).
Kind of tangential, and I know this is taking the number too seriously but: it doesn't help that 1000 true fans can no longer sustain an artist either. I want to work on my own game, and even if I could somehow get away with 1000 copies sold at $30 (basically pricing myself at the top of indies)... I wouldn't even make minimum wage in California. With no benefits!. and of course that's before the platform cuts and potentially paying for any tools I use. And assuming I work alone on all this. Making more monetization in games these days is still a controversial topic evolving in real time.
1000 true fans more became 10000 true fans these days. Thanks, inflation.
If you think a $10,000 microphone and a $500,000 mixing console and a team of people to.man them is what's standing between you and Taylor Swift level polish, I'd argue that is is the capitalist mega-machine keeping you down. If it weren't for capitalism, you'd have access to those things and be able to give your music that kind of polish.
Of course, in this day and age, access to quality gear and talent doesn't that quite that much money. Garage band isn't just the name of the recording software, but also a statement on how accessible technology has made being a musical artist.
The idea that nonprofits should prop up art has always been wrong, in a way. Artists since the Italian Renaissance have produced most of their greatest / most famous works for wealthy patrons, not because governments paid them to do it. (Unless you count the Vatican as a government).
What I'm trying to say is that all art arises from pop culture, and pop culture can engender the height of artistic excellence, if the culture itself has good taste and demands quality. Or, pop culture can be a pit of garbage if the culture has degraded. This is what is meant about the transition from "Ideal" Hellenistic art to art which embodied "Pathos" around the 4th Century BC.
We have transitioned in the past 50 years from a culture which strives for the ideal, to one which worships pathos. That may be the mark of a civilization in decline (based on a relatively limited number of historical examples). But the "fix" isn't more public funding for art that no one looks at or listens to. All great art arose from popular desire for it; you can't force it on a population, or keep it alive if there's no audience.