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I just bought a pro subscription.

First impressions: The new o1-Pro model is an insanely good writer. Aside from favoring the long em-dash (—) which isn't on most keyboards, it has none of the quirks and tells of old GPT-4/4o/o1. It managed to totally fool every "AI writing detector" I ran it through.

It can handle unusually long prompts.

It appears to be very good at complex data analysis. I need to put it through its paces a bit more, though.



> Aside from favoring the long em-dash (—) which isn't on most keyboards

Interesting! I intentionally edit my keyboard layout to include the em-dash, as I enjoy using it out of sheer pomposity—I should undoubtedly delve into the extent to which my own comments have been used to train GPT models!


On my keyboard (en-us) it's ALT+"-" to get an em-dash.

I use it all the time because it's the "correct" one to use, but it's often more "correct" to just rewrite the sentence in a way that doesn't call for one. :)


I think that’s en-dash (–, used for ranges). Em-dash (—, used mid-sentence for asides etc) is the same combo but with shift as well.


–: alt+shift+minus on my azerty(fr) mac keyboard. I use it constantly. "Stylometry" hazard though !


Word processors -- MS Word, Google Docs -- will generally convert three hyphens to em dash.

(And two hyphens to en dash.)


I just use it because it's grammatically correct—admittedly I should use it less, for example here.


Just so you know, text using the em-dash like that combined with a few other "tells" makes me double check if it might be LLM written.

Other things are the overuse of transition words (e.g., "however," "furthermore," "moreover," "in summary," "in conclusion,") as well as some other stuff.

It might not be fair to people who write like that naturally, but it is what it is in the current situation we find ourselves in.


"In the past three days, I've reviewed over 100 essays from the 2024-2025 college admissions cycle. Here's how I could tell which ones were written by ChatGPT"

https://www.reddit.com/r/ApplyingToCollege/comments/1h0vhlq/...


On Windows em dash is ALT+0151; the paragraph mark (§) is ALT+0167. Once you know them (and a couple of others, for instance accented capitals) they become second nature, and work on all keyboards, everywhere.


delve?

Did ChatGPT write this comment for you?


For me, at least, it's common knowledge "delve" is overused and I would include it in a mock reply.


That's the joke.



Some of us are just greedy and deep, okay?


AI writing detectors are snake oil


Startup I'm at has generated a LOT of content using LLMs and once you've reviewed enough of the output, you can easily see specific patterns in the output.

Some words/phrases that, by default, it overuses: "dive into", "delve into", "the world of", and others.

You correct it with instructions, but it will then find synonyms so there is also a structural pattern to the output that it favors by default. For example, if we tell it "Don't start your writing with 'dive into'", it will just switch to "delve into" or another synonym.

Yes, all of this can be corrected if you put enough effort into the prompt and enough iterations to fix all of these tells.


> if we tell it "Don't start your writing with 'dive into'", it will just switch to "delve into" or another synonym.

LLMs can radically change their style, you just have to specify what style you want. I mean, if you prompt it to "write in the style of an angry Charles Bukowski" you'll stop seeing those patterns you're used to.

In my team for a while we had a bot generating meeting notes "in the style of a bored teenager", and (besides being hilarious) the results were very unlike typical AI "delvish".


Of course the "delve into" and "dive into" is just its default to be corrected with additional instruction. But once you do something like "write in the style of...", then it has its own tells because as I noted below, it is, in the end, biased towards frequency.


Of course there will be a set of tells for any given style, but the space of possibilities is much larger than what a person could recognize. So as with most LLM tasks, the issue is figuring out how to describe specifically what you want.

Aside: not about you specifically, but I feel like complaints on HN about using LLMs often boil down to somebody saying "it doesn't do X", where X is a thing they didn't ask the the model to do. E.g. a thread about "I asked for a Sherlock Holmes story but the output wasn't narrated by Watson" was one that stuck in my mind. You wouldn't think engineers would make mistakes like that, but I guess people haven't really sussed out how to think about LLMs yet.

Anyway for problems like what you described, one has to be wary about expecting the LLM to follow unstated requirements. I mean, if you just tell it not to say "dive into" and it doesn't, then it's done everything it was asked, after all.


I mean, we get it. It's a UX problem. But the thing is you have to tell it exactly what to do every time. Very often, it'll do what you said but not what you meant, and you have to wrestle with it.

You'd have to come up with a pretty exhaustive list of tells. Even sentence structure and mood is sometimes enough, not just the obvious words.


This is the way. Blending two or more styles also works well, especially if they're on opposite poles, e.g. "write like the imaginary lovechild of Cormac McCarthy and Ernest Hemingway."

Also, wouldn't angry Charles Bukowski just be ... Charles Bukowski?


> ...once you've reviewed enough of the output, you can easily see specific patterns in the output

That is true, but more importantly, are those patterns sufficient to distinguish between AI-generated content from human-generated content? Humans express themselves very differently by region and country ( e.g. "do the needful" in not common in the midwest, "orthogonal" and "order of magnitude" are used more on HN than most other places). Outside of watermaking, detecting AI-generated text is with an acceptably small false-positive error rate is nearly impossible.


All of what you described can change wildly from model to model. Even across different versions of the same model.

Maybe a database could be built with “tells” organized by model.


Exactly. Fixing the old tells just means there are new ones.


> Maybe a database could be built with “tells” organized by model.

Automated by the LLMs themselves.


No thanks, I’d like it to be accurate ;)

Regular ol tests would do


I should have been more precise. I meant the LLMs would output their tells for you, naturally. But that's obvious.


They can’t know their own tells… that’s not how any of this works.

Thinking about it a bit more, the tells that work might depend on the usage of other specific prompts.


Not sure why you default to an uncharitable mode in understanding what I am trying to say.

I didn't say they know their own tells. I said they naturally output them for you. Maybe the obvious is so obvious I don't need to comment on it. Meaning this whole "tells analysis" would necessarily rely on synthetic data sets.


I always assumed that they were snake oil because the training objective is to get a model that writes like a human. AI detectors by definition are showing what does not sound like a human, so presumably people will train the models against the detectors until they no longer provide any signal.


The thing is, the LLM has a flaw: it is still fundamentally biased towards frequency.

AI detectors generally can take advantage of this and look for abnormal patterns in frequencies of specific words, phrases, or even specific grammatical constructs because the LLM -- by default -- is biased that way.

I'm not saying this is easy and certainly, LLMs can be tuned in many ways via instructions, context, and fine-tuning to mask this.


Couldn't the LLM though just randomly replace/reword things to cover up its frequency in "post"?


They're not very accurate, but I think snake oil is a bit too far - they're better than guessing at least for the specific model(s) they're trained on. OpenAI's classifier [0] was at 26% recall, 91% precision when it launched, though I don't know what models created the positives in their test set. (Of course they later withdrew that classifier due to its low accuracy, which I think was the right move. When a company offers both an AI Writer and an AI Writing detector people are going to take its predictions as gospel and _that_ is definitely a problem.)

All that aside, most models have had a fairly distinctive writing style, particularly when fed no or the same system prompt every time. If o1-Pro blends in more with human writing that's certainly... interesting.

[0] https://openai.com/index/new-ai-classifier-for-indicating-ai...


Anecdotally, English/History/Communications professors are confirming cheaters with them because they find it easy to identify false information. The red flags are so obvious that the checker tools are just a formality: student papers now have fake URLs and fake citations. Students will boldly submit college papers which have paragraphs about nonexistent characters, or make false claims about what characters did in a story.

The e-mail correspondence goes like this: "Hello Professor, I'd like to meet to discuss my failing grade. I didn't know that using ChatGPT was bad, can I have some points back or rewrite my essay?"


Yeah but they "detect" the characteristic AI style: The limited way it structures sentences, the way it lays out arguments, the way it tends to close with an "in conclusion" paragraph, certain word choices, etc. o1-Pro doesn't do any of that. It writes like a human.

Damnit. It's too good. It just saved me ~6 hours in drafting a complicated and bespoke legal document. Before you ask: I know what I'm doing, and it did a better job in five minutes than I could have done over those six hours. Homework is over. Journalism is over. A large slice of the legal profession is over. For real this time.


Journalism is not only about writing. It is about sources, talking to people, being on the ground, connecting dots, asking the right questions. Journalists can certainly benefit from AI and good journalists will have jobs for a long time still.


While the above is true, I'd say the majority of what passes as journalism these days has none of the above and the writing is below what an AI writer could produce :(

It's actually surprising how many articles on 'respected' news websites have typos. You'd think there would be automated spellcheckers and at least one 'peer review' (probably too much to ask an actual editor to review the article these days...).


    It's actually surprising how many articles on 'respected' news websites have typos.
Well, that's why they're respected! The typos let you know they're not using AI!


Mainstream news today is written for an 8th grade reading ability. Many adults would lose interest otherwise, and the generation that grew up reading little more than social media posts will be even worse.

AI can handle that sort of writing just fine, readers won't care about the formulaic writing style.


These days, most journalism is turning reddit posts and tweets into long form articles with some additional context.


So AI could actually turn journalism more into what it originally was: reporting what is going on, rather than reading and rewriting information from other sources. Interesting possibility.


Yes and I think that's the promise that AI offers for many professionals - cut out the cruft and focus on the high level tasks.


That’s not journalism and anyone calling themselves a journalist for doing that is a fool.


ahh, but:

> I know what I'm doing

Is exactly the key element in being able to use spicy autocomplete. If you don't know what you're doing, it's going to bite you and you won't know it until it's too late. "GPT messed up the contract" is not an argument I would envy anyone presenting in court or to their employer. :)

(I say this mostly from using tools like copilot)


Well... Lawyers already got slapped for filings straight from ai output. So not new territory as far as that's concerned :)


> Homework is over. Journalism is over. A large slice of the legal profession is over. For real this time.

It just replaces human slop with automated slop. It doesn't automate finding hidden things out just yet, just automates blogspam.


> Before you ask: I know what I'm doing, and it did a better job in five minutes than I could have done over those six hours.

Seems like lawyers could do more faster because they know what they are doing. Experts dont get replaced, they get tools to amplify and extend their expertise


Replacement doesn't happen only if the demand for their services scales proportional to the productivity improvements, which is true sometimes but not always true, and is less likely to be true if the productivity improvements are very large.


It still needs to be driven by someone who knows what they're doing.

Just like when software that was coming out, it may have ended jobs.

But it also helped get things done that wouldn't otherwise, or as much.

In this case, equipping a capable lawyer to be 20x is more like an iron man suit, which is OK. If you can get more done, wit less effort, you are still critical to what's needed.


sold. Ill buy it, thx for review.

Edit> Its good. Thanks again for ur review.


Doubtful AI writing is obvious as hell.


of course they are. it’s simple: if they worked they would be incorporated into the loss function of the models and then they would no longer work


I use the emdash a lot. Maybe too much. On MacOS, it's so easy to type—just press shift-option-minus—that I don't even think about it anymore!


Or double type ‘-‘ and in many apps it’ll auto transform the two dashes to emdash. However, the method you’re describing is far more reliable, thanks!


I noticed a writing style difference, too, and I prefer it. More concise. On the coding side, it's done very well on large (well as large as it can manage) codebase assessment, bug finding, etc. I will reach for it rather than o1-preview for sure.


Writers love the em-dash though. It's a thing.


I love using it in my creative writing, I use it for an abrupt change. Find it kinda weird that it's so controversial.


My 10th grade english teacher (2002, just as blogging was taking off) called it sloppy and I gotta agree with her. These days I see it as youtube punctuation, like jump cut editing for text.


How is it sloppy?


It's not. People just like to pretend they have moral superiority for their opinions on arbitrary writing rules, when in reality the only thing that matters is if you're clearly communicating something valuable.

I'm a professional writer and use em-dashes without a second thought. Like any other component of language, just don't _over_ use them.


That's encouraging to hear that it's a better writer, but I wonder if "quirks and tells" can only be seen in hindsight. o1-pro's quirks may only become apparent after enough people have flooded the internet with its output.


> Aside from favoring the long em-dash (—)

This is a huge improvement over previous GPT and Claude, which use the terrible "space, hyphen, space" construct. I always have to manually change them to em-dashes.


> which isn't on most keyboards

This shouldn’t really be a serious issue nowadays. On macOS it’s Option+Shift+'-', on Windows it’s Ctrl+Alt+Num- or (more cryptic) Alt+0151.

The Swiss army knife solution is to configure yourself a Compose key, and then it’s an easy mnemonic like for example Compose 3 - (and Compose 2 - for en dash).


No internet access makes it very hard to benefit from o1 pro. Most of the complex questions I would ask require google search for research papers, language or library docs, etc. Not sure why o1 pro is banned from the internet, was it caught downloading too much porn or something?


Or worse still, referencing papers it shouldn’t be referencing because of paywalls may be.


Macs have always been able to type the em dash — the key combination is ⌥⇧- (Option-Shift-hyphen). I often use them in my own writing. (Hope it doesn't make somebody think I'm phoning it in with AI!)


Anyone who read "The Mac is not a typewriter" — a fantastic book of the early computer age — likely uses em dashes.


Wait how did you buy it. I’m just getting forwarded to Team Plan I already have. Sitting in Germany, tried US VPN as well.


The endpoint for upgrading for the normal web interface was returning 500s for me. Upgrading through the iOS app worked though.


Some autocorrect software automatically converts two hyphens in a row into an emdash. I know that's how it worked in Microsoft Word and just verified it's doing that with Google Docs. So it's not like it's hard to include an emdash in your writing.

Could be a tell for emails, though.


This is interesting, because at my job I have to manually edit registration addresses that use the long em-dash as our vendor only supports ASCII. I think Windows automatically converts two dashes to the long em-dash.


> It managed to totally fool every "AI writing detector" I ran it through.

For now, as ai power increase, ai powered ai writing detection tool also gets better.


I’m less sure. This seems like an asymmetrical battle with a lot more money flowing to develop the models that write than detect.


It's also because it's brand new.

Give it a few weeks for them to classify its outputs, and they won't have a problem.


> the long em-dash (—) which isn't on most keyboards

On Windows its Windows Key + . to get the emoji picker, its in the Symbols tab or find it in recents.


Well not for me it's not, that is a zoom function.

En dash is Alt+0150 and Em dash is Alt+0151


How do you have that configured? The Windows+. shortcut was added in a later update to W10 and pops up a GUI for selecting emojis, symbols, or other non-typable characters.


Long emdash is the way -- possible proof of AGI here


Would you mind sharing any favourite example chats?


Give me a prompt and I'll share the result.


Great! Suggested prompt below:

I need help creating a comprehensive Anki deck system for my 8-year-old who is following a classical education model based on the trivium (grammar stage). The child has already: - Mastered numerous Latin and Greek root words - Achieved mathematics proficiency equivalent to US 5th grade - Demonstrated strong memorization capabilities

Please create a detailed 12-month learning plan with structured Anki decks covering:

1. Core subject areas prioritized in classical education (specify 4-5 key subjects) 2. Recommended daily review time for each deck 3. Progression sequence showing how decks build upon each other 4. Integration strategy with existing knowledge of Latin/Greek roots 5. Sample cards for each deck type, including: - Basic cards (front/back) - Cloze deletions - Image-based cards (if applicable) - Any special card formats for mathematical concepts

For each deck, please provide: - Clear learning objectives - 3-5 example cards with complete front/back content - Estimated initial deck size - Suggested intervals for introducing new cards - Any prerequisites or dependencies on other decks

Additional notes: - Cards should align with the grammar stage focus on memorization and foundational knowledge - Please include memory techniques or mnemonics where appropriate - Consider both verbal and visual learning styles - Suggest ways to track progress and adjust difficulty as needed

Example of the level of detail needed for card examples:

Subject: Latin Declensions Card Type: Basic Front: 'First declension nominative singular ending' Back: '-a (Example: puella)'



> “First declension nominative singular ending”

> “Sum, es, est, sumus, ________, sunt”

That's not made for an 8-year old.


Thanks! Here's Claude's effort (in 'Formal' mode):

https://gist.github.com/rahimnathwani/7ed6ceaeb6e716cedd2097...


Interesting that it thought for 1m28s on only two tasks. My intuition with o1-preview is that each task had a rather small token limit, perhaps they raised this limit.


404 :(


Would give similar output with o1. This is very simple stuff not needing any analysis or planning


I'd like to see how it performs on the test of https://aclanthology.org/2023.findings-emnlp.966/, even though in theory it's no longer valid due to possible data contamination.

The prompt is:

Write an epic narration of a single combat between Ignatius J. Reilly and a pterodactyl, in the style of John Kennedy Toole.



Thanks a lot! That's pretty impressive, although not sure if noticeably better than non-pro o1 (which was already very impressive).

I suppose creative writing isn't the primary selling point that would make users upgrade from $20 to $200 :)


  Write me a review of "The Malazan Book of the Fallen" with the main argument being that it could be way shorter


Did this unironically.

https://chatgpt.com/share/67522170-8fec-8005-b01c-2ff174356d...

It's a bit overwrought, but not too bad.


"the signal-to-noise ratio has grown too low" is a bit odd for me. The ratio would not have grown at all.


How did you get your child to study Greek? (Genuinely curious)


The Malazan response is below the deck response.


Oops! That's the same ANKI link as above.


It's part of the same conversation. Should be below that other response.


Ok, I laughed


You can use the emdash by writing dash twice -- it works in a surprising number of editors and rendering engines


Does it still hallucinate? This for me is key, if it does it will be limited.


The current architect of LLMs will always "hallucinate".


What’s the context window?


128k tokens




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