The problem with discussing politics is that it gives you the kicks. Its very easy to get into a feedback loop and take things quite far off civility. I am also guilty of it, many times.
IMHO there needs to be a mechanism for breaking the loop and then we can have civil online political discussions. Unfortunately most places just ban it or ban those who got into the loop, either way its ugly.
IRL when discussing politics and things don't go badly its thanks to 3rd party who will moderate or calm down the heated debaters.
No thank you. I am absolutely uninterested in civil discussions with people who literally want to kill me and deport my good friends to guantanamo bay cuba. When you accept nazism you throw the concept of civil discourse out the window.
Having civil discussions with people who disagree isn't about politeness or acquiescence. Having political discussions per the same rules we use for technical debates, like steel manning, allows information to actually flow both ways. I'm up to four people now that I changed parties between 2020 and 2024. That doesn't seem like a lot, but if everyone was doing it it would make a difference. It took time. I had to non judgementally listen to their concerns and intuit the fears underneath. They were reasonable intelligent people operating off of propaganda mostly. The emotional hook had been set and used draw them further and further into false narratives that fed their fears and hopes. To think I am immune isn't realistic either. My triggers are getting used to pull me the other direction, to make me uncompromising, and to view those who disagree as inhuman. Some of that is game theory polarizing us, but some of it is the intentional result of the Kremlin's standard divide and conquer they have been using on us for over half a century. The antidote is calm conversations with voters who have been made scared about irrational things, and looking to see what fears we are being manipulated with as well.
> Having civil discussions with people who disagree isn't about politeness or acquiescence. Having political discussions per the same rules we use for technical debates, like steel manning, allows information to actually flow both ways.
What additional information do they need to get out there other than they want me and people like me dead? What additional information do I need to get out there other than I don't want them to do that?
The logical end state of this belief is a civil war. I assume that in lieu of trying to change minds you're buying guns and ammo and trying to organize like minded people into a militia to protect your safety? Cause if not, I don't really think you really believe that a significant fraction of the country wants people like you dead.
Not sure which hated demographic you fall in, but I have friends that are suddenly being threatened by individuals who now feel free to expose their true selves. I can't believe almost half the population are like that though. Escape may be the best option for a lot of people at this point. My friend doesn't realistically have that option due to finances and skillset. I do think people who aren't in immediate danger can pull a lot of people supporting those fueled by hate away from their positions with calm dialogue.
In my experience as a chronic immigrant, most people are nice but there are some a-holes who would want to harm you or see you get harmed but they would not act unless they feel in power.
Therefore, most of the time you can just ignore them and your experience wouldn't any different than the natives who would also encounter a-holes for different reasons. The problem starts when someone in power to affect your life is one of those but in normal times you still can push back by questioning their actions as they still seek approval from the larger society.
The case with Trump seems to be the same with the case with Brexit: Those a-holes(not everyone who support those but a subset of them who are a-holes) start believing that they are in power and the society approves them therefore they can act on their instincts or plans.
I was working in London on the Brexit referendum day, some of our Spanish developers had trouble with people from their neighborhood right after the referandum.
Case in point: you have decided that those who disagree with you want to kill you, deport your friend, and are otherwise nazis. While a minority do, that isn't the majority.
This argument went out the window long ago. You're not absolved of responsibility just because you voted for someone who wants to hurt people instead of hurting them yourself.
Quit turning the argument around. forget about "them" - what does it say about you when you cannot talk nice about people you disagree with?
People who voted for Trump are not stupid. They have real concerns that they do not see being met and so they are turning to something that while maybe not ideal is at least a promise of maybe better. Maybe it will be worse, but they don't see things on the right track as they were either.
I'm sorry but any charitability was lost after his first term, if you're still voting for him then yes, you are indeed stupid. His actions literally do not benefit anyone other than a few close "friends" that make billions on the massive swings he creates in the market. If you're a money hungry billionaire I understand why you vote for him, if you're the average Joe then you're dumb.
I find it really funny that even now, several months into his seconds term, you're still attempting to paint his supporters as regular level-headed people with "real concerns". Yea, that's why in every interview where they cry about lost jobs or crashed market it's "I thought he was going to hurt the others!". Real fine people he's got there.
I feel like by now those people you describe should have realized Trump is doing no good on those issues they supposedly cared about. And if they had even a tiny modicum of empathy, they should be scared shitless about the people getting disappeared.
The economy is shit, eggs are more expensive than ever but those same people that insisted those issues alone should decide the fate of the country don't seem to care anymore. Why?
People who voted for Trump weren't stupid, they've been molded into it by the most expensive proaganda apparatus that ever existed. Ask yourself, why isn't Trump's popularity declining in the face of such incompetency?
Now, what can a nice talk achieve that material reality failed to convince those people of?
Then why did he run on that?? That's my whole point! Why did Fox News make this the central issue of the campaign? Why did he promise 100 times he would bring down egg prices? And why is he now pretending like the prices are down and lower than ever before???
And most importantly, why aren't there any Republicans that care he lied and continues to lie so shamelessly about it? On that and the thousand other issues he promised he would fix and did not deliver jack shit on.
My point is, they're completely detached from reality. No amount of polite discussion can bring them back. If you haven't realized Trump is a lying crook at this point, you never will.
You're prime example, you just shut your mind completely and said "he can't do anything about it" when 4 months prior you, like the rest of them, certainly would have been adamant Biden should go to hell for making eggs so expensive and that Trump would fix everything.
Why can't we talk plainly to each other anymore? Can we not talk in loaded statements and projection?
They have valid concerns, and taking steps to minimizing those concerns is just muddying the water in favor of those using political violence against people who don't deserve it.
There's a lot of counter-intel campaigns flying around all at once, and a lot of them are curated to infect brains of people who are willing to accept fascism.
"Well, they're not completely nazis... so you're wrong for likening them to nazis!"
"Well, you've decided to shut off discussion to people opening your mind about the impending fascism. That must mean you're not fit for discussion"
“Historians have a word for Germans who joined the Nazi party, not because they hated Jews, but out of a hope for restored patriotism, or a sense of economic anxiety, or a hope to preserve their religious values, or dislike of their opponents, or raw political opportunism, or convenience, or ignorance, or greed.
That word is 'Nazi.' Nobody cares about their motives anymore.”
We had a word for people that voted for Nazis, agreed with Nazis, talked like Nazis but claimed they weren't Nazis themselves in the 40s. It was "Nazi".
What matters is that the current administration is disappearing people with no legal reasons, due process or possible recourse. Either you agree with them in which case fuck you, or you don't and you condemn them. There can be no compromise or civility when one side is so aggressive and dangerous.
See, its unlikely that its those people that you meet online and you won't be able to do anything to them anyway.
%99.999 of the time its usually trolls or people with good intentions(with wrong solutions based on wrong information or understanding of the situation). Trolls can be fun when they play with hypothetical scenarios and edge cases, conducting thought experiments.
You are also unlikely to change the views of the people with good intentions through discussion but they are very useful to understand what their motives so you can develop beter arguments or solutions. Also, you might find out that on some issues you are one of those with good intentions(but misguided understanding of the situation).
No thank you. I am absolutely uninterested in civil discussions with people who literally want to control everything I say and put my good friends into reeducation camps. When you accept communism you throw the concept of civil discourse out the window.
Democrats haven't put anyone into a reeducation camp as far as I'm aware. Your enemies are imaginary while the parent comment's enemies are all too real.
Yes, but the Republicans literally want to kill some minority groups. /s
Do you know how crazy this all sounds once you're outside of a specific left echo chamber? How is the hyperbole I employed any more unbelievable than that of the poster I was replying to? Another sibling comment to yours says that Trump is rounding up political opponents for a gulag. Nevermind that he has only rounded up non-citizen (most of them in the US illegally) because that's all he can do.
If you look at my posting history, it's wildly left-wing as little as 2 years ago. I've become completely disillusioned with the left after noticing how self-contradictory some of those ideas are and how the language of crisis is deployed to constantly smear their political opponents. Everyone the left doesn't like is Hitler and every policy they don't like is fascism. Give me break.
Edit:
For a little more elaboration, look at the speech codes and compelled "DEI pledges" that American universities have employed in the last few years[1]. How is this not speech policing? You might argue that these are private institutions, and maybe that's fair enough, but when the government pulls funding for crap like this the hyperbole and outrage persist.
Or look at Canada's bill C-63[2]. This bill aims to allow the possibility of life sentences for "hate speech"[3]. To me this is authoritarian. To many left wing commentators, it's another day at the office, I guess - meanwhile the Canadian right wing party is regularly called fascist[4][5] despite being basically in line with US Democrats on many issues.
Oh good, "it's only non-citizens". Nevermind that they're still supposed to be protected by the constitution, then. Also, Trump said two days ago that he wishes to send citizens to El Salvador too [1]. Are we allowed to call them fascist or should we wait for that to be made illegal too?
Trump does not care about the law. SCOTUS, in a historic 9-0 ruling, commanded him to bring back Kilmar Abrego Garcia from El Salvador. He unsurprisingly did not comply. Yet you're still insisting he can't legally do X or Y so everything is fine. When has that stopped him, like ever?
If that's not fascism, then what is? What would it take for you to say "OK that's too much"?
I understand you're trying to "both sides" an argument. What have you found that has achieved for you in the past? Do you change people's opinions with this?
What you are saying is the fantastical kool-aid Fox News and alt-right media spin to you.
In the meantime, Trump is actually deporting people without due process to inhumane torture camps run by a dictator while openly bragging about it and defying court orders.
> What you are saying is the fantastical kool-aid Fox News and alt-right media spin to you.
What I'm replying to is the fantastical Kool-aid MSNBC and alt-left media spin. I'm pretty sure the Republicans are not going to be rounding up and killing minorities despite hyperbolic descriptions like "people who literally want to kill me and deport my good friends to guantanamo bay cuba".
Wait, you're saying El Salvador is a dictatorship? From briefly glancing at Wikipedia I don't see any evidence of that. Why the need to smear another country just to make Trump look worse?
Insane talk. Where is that communist political force seeking to open gulags? The Democrats? Hahahahah
Trump has a gulag in El Salvador, right now, that he uses to send his political opponents to. And you people are still making up fantasies to play the victim. Absolutely disgusting.
> people who literally want to control everything I say and put my good friends into reeducation camps
Then you shouldn't talk to Trump supporters as that's exactly what they want to do for anyone that disagrees with them, and last I checked, they're capitalists.
They are planning on abducting people off the street, completely ignoring the courts and denying due process, and sending them to another country where they're being deprived of their rights, again, with no due process and no (effective) judicial review.
I'd expect most right wingers would be against this, but the Orange in Charge's supporters seem to hew to the "well if you didn't do anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about" angle because it's something happening to people they think deserve it.
> but the Orange in Charge's supporters seem to hew to the "well if you didn't do anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about" angle because it's something happening to people they think deserve it.
This is literally the left wing reply when people complain about losing their job or their family for voicing the wrong political belief. "They deserve it, they should 'do better'."
The loop is intentionally being closed and sped-up by enemies of the USA who want to exhaust the USA in every way possible.
After the infekktion of 2015, moderators of Right-leaning discussion boards started amping up their censorship. Left leaning and moderate discussion boards still tend to be more moderate, letting most discussions in and censoring less.
Most of the time, one side is trying to play an equal field, while the other shits all over it and just yells "Winning!"
IMHO there needs to be a mechanism for breaking the loop and then we can have civil online political discussions. Unfortunately most places just ban it or ban those who got into the loop, either way its ugly.
IRL when discussing politics and things don't go badly its thanks to 3rd party who will moderate or calm down the heated debaters.