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Boss want a strictly fixed budget for running those cool programs. The rationale behind these programs (at least partially) is about measuring exploits and mitigations dynamics, not buying bugs. And, Linux is just too buggy that if you pay for every 0-day it's basically out of control. Google tried to do so (and to drain people's hoarded bugs) once, ran a limited time promotion with no race, every 0 day counts, got flooded.

And at the same time you don't want to piss the community, so here we go.



If linux kernel security really is so bad that google had to add a proof-of-work to introduce a 4 second race for 0day submissions, I'm surprised they're ok with still using the Linux kernel as the base for Android.


Android has a vastly improved and better version of linux kernel: https://old.reddit.com/r/GrapheneOS/comments/bddq5u/os_secur...


All of that's talking about the userspace though?


Not all. For example kCFI is kernel space.

Also, attack surface reduction is a very valid strategy, so it may seem like about the userspace (sandbox for every apps etc) but it could make a big different in how much of the kernel attack surface is exposed.


Yes, but the concept of CFI is only mentioned in passing in that entire thread, and the kCFI implementation used is a vanilla kernel feature and not android specific.

There's a lot to be said that "Distro kernel config choices may not be as secure as possible", but that's not really an "Android"/"Vanilla Linux Kernel" difference.


Well, I don't know kCFI being enabled on any distro besides Android, cause it requires building the kernel with Clang.

The previous in-kernel CFI implementation (before the kinda joint effort - kCFI) was upstreamed by Google, too: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Clang-CFI-Linux-Patches and https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-Kernel-Clang-LTO-Patches. Pixel devices also had this long before. Given that the entire Linux kernel feature was developed out of Android I find it a little bit unfair to call it "using a vanilla kernel feature".


I'd argue that the entire point of using a shared open source kernel is that other users can benefit from additions.

Arguing "Who first added a feature" seems to be a losing spiral of needless tribalism. How many features does the Android kernel use that weren't developed by Google? Does that mean they wouldn't have developed those features? Or just that there's no point making a parallel implementation if there's already one existing.


The point here is not who first added the feature to Linux kernel. The point is Android cared about security, built a CFI implementation, started shipping it back in 2018, while Linux had other priorities and didn't have it until 2021. And even then almost nobody adopted it.


What is the alternative? I suspect all modern kernels are more or less just as vulnerable? They did start https://fuchsia.dev/ so maybe they are hedging against this problem? But making a fully-featured OS is a huge undertaking, especially if you need compatibility with existing apps and a wide variety of hardware.


What's the alternative that is efficient, feature complete(*) and more secure?

(*) For example, Android uses SELinux to confine apps, virtual machines (pKVM) to run DRM code, and so on. All these increase the overall security of the system and decrease the cost of kernel bugs, so there's a tradeoff that's not easy to evaluate.


Google isn't doing the race thing. They just pay out to whoever submits a valid submission. The people doing the racing are the submitters who want to get ahead of their competition and are stockpiling their exploits. If they were altruists, they would just submit their exploits for no renumeration. Hence the race isn't something Google is doing.

The proof of work isn't there to add a "four second race". It's to prevent ddos like spam.


is there some more info somewhere about that flood? how many teams? how many submissions? how many unique? how much money G paid out?


So, here is a tweet from Eduardo highlighting that they got a lot of 0day submissions immediately after they launched the promotion: https://x.com/sirdarckcat/status/1681491274489282565

And the spreadsheet is public [0], I counted 7 unique hoarded bugs (submitted immediately after launch) after deduplicating by patch commit hash. Then in the month following, another 9 unique bugs were submitted.

As for how much paid, I don't remember. Could be around $200~300k in total.

[0] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vS1REdTA29OJ...




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