Interesting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having to figure out how to address others, especially people you've known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-time neighbors I rarely meet.

Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first names with everybody.

Yes. I find addressing people by surname uniquely stupid. Like are you calling the person or the historical clan? It perhaps made sense for medieval lords to address their underlings as if they were interchangeable, in our modern context that has largely done away with royalty, using surnames makes no sense.

It becomes even more interesting when traditionally cultures (like mine) don't use surnames, but modern IT systems stemming from the Anglo Saxon culture force people to arbitrarily assign one of their names as a surname or IT systems generally don't work.

I have a very common first name (Dave) and a very uncommon last name (Pifke, pronounced PIF-key). The majority of my close friends call me by my last name, since there are several other Daves and Davids in our friend group.

My brother's friends do likewise, since his first name is Mike and he runs with a bunch of other Mikes and Michaels.

There's a naming collision when my brother and I hang out together, but since we live in different states, the system usually works.

Similar here. My last name is pretty unusual, but my first name is common, so I generally go by my last name with friends and colleagues. Oddly, I've gotten so used to this that it feels a little bit more formal when someone addresses me by my first name.

To make matters even more complicated, when I do use my first name, I almost always use an abbreviation. The only people that use my full first name are my parents, sister, and (occasionally) my wife, and it's really off-putting to hear it otherwise.

Names are interesting and weird.

There's always first initial partial last. DPif and MPif

Same. I work with a girl with first name Emily last name rhymes with “Wacky”. The latter is so much for fun to say and avoids collisions.

I think American high school kids often refer to and address one another by surname. It was the case when at my son's high school, as I recall at my own, and I think at my wife's. It might have been the case at my father's, and perhaps my wife's parents--I'd have to look at the yearbooks.

My experience is this mostly between men and generally not as common as it used to be.

My dad is called by his surname by some of his high school pals and call some of them by surname when he's around them (but not in reference to them if he's talking to me). Thinking back to my high school days in the late 00's I can only remember athletes being called by their last name. Perhaps because of football or sports that you just have your last name on your jersey. It would be an interesting thing to understand more.

I could be regional too. I'm from the US in the midwest.

This is what we used to do, because in one friend group there would be 3 mikes and 2 steves. At some point, you have to use nicknames or last names.

Nicknames include variations like Mikey, Mickey, Mikail, Big Michael, Little Michael, Gas Station Michael, Angry Michael, Tony (obligatory wrong name your group uses because there were already too many Michaels and this Michael liked his middle name)

and Mike.

a lot of the time its just a nickname. public schools in the US are huge and then when it comes to sports the athletes are visiting other schools. before i knew it id meet 12 new Jakes every year so everyone goes by nicknames or last name

theres an occasional phenomenon in the US, often referenced in sitcoms, where an individuals entire first and last name sticks as their "nickname"

In my high school (Massachusetts, USA), almost all the students went by their last names, or something related to their last names. Ashley Milford was Milf, Samantha St. Paul was Saint Paul, Ryan Leonard was Lenny, Kevin Doo was Kevin Doo, for example. I'm still my surname in my head.

I learned later that we had a reputation for being a jock school though, because we all had to play a sport each semester.

There's also the "when you say Mr. lastname, I turn around and look for my father" type of responses when using someone's last name.

Addressing each other by surname is something that occurs principally in the context of sports, but outside of that you'd just address someone by given name. That was the case as regards children addressing each other or teachers addressing students. Students addressing teachers, of course, would address them by Mr/Mrs/Ms. <surname>. There are some oddball cases where teachers insist their students address them by given name, though.

Also, you made me feel old.

It is also used when there's name collision

If there's five people named John in the same class in school or the same team at work, it is not uncommon for all John to go by last name.

In my circle usually people would either go by their middle name or they'd very quickly earn themselves a nickname... although now that I think about it we did use lastnames for some guys. Whatever works, really. Nobody was a stickler about how they were addressed.

The surname thing was extremely common even outside of sports at my high school.

This was absolutely not the norm I experienced in the 2000s.

I did in that timeframe. To be clear, it's not "Mr Surname" but just plain "Surname". I have a lot of friends like that, "Boughter", "Mooney", etc. Not everyone, but particularly if the first name was a common one or they played sports.

I'm actually surprised you're not familiar with the practice. Think Scully from X-Files or Stifler from American Pie.

Not just Scully, but essentially everybody from every doctor or police procedural goes by their last name. The shows aren't called Meredith's Anatomy, Gregory, Adrian, or Theo.

>Stifler from American Pie

I always assumed it was his first name, thanks for expanding my understanding just a little!

I experienced this at an boy's prep high school in the late 90s. It really was alienating to have friends I'd known since kindergarten start to refer to me by my last name out of sheer conformity.

It’s mostly a thing among kids heavily into sports, in my experience.

I suspect the equivalent for 90s/00s nerdy types is e-mail addresses.

I am still "squirrel" to some college friends. And think of many of my college friends and co-workers as their username.

Were your "American" high schools located on some other continent?

The fact that different cultures evolved such systems independently proves that the general idea does make sense. Case in point: you go to an American company, the CEO says "call me simply John, feel free to chat up whenever you feel like it, we're all family here" and then you go talk to him about sex life problems of your marriage and he just stares at you awkwardly. Having explicit layers of social "closeness" makes things much easier to manage. "We address each other using last names, therefore I won't tell him about sex life of my marriage".

In your example the American CEO said you are family.

Do you frequently tell you mom, dad, brothers, children and in laws about your sex life?

Of course not. Whatever problem the American in this hypothetical is having, name conventions are not likely to help.

This wasn't just "sex life", it was "sex life problems of your marriage". And yes, there's a good chance I'd go to family and close friends if I was having intimacy problems with my spouse (with the approval of my spouse, of course!), assuming I have a close personal relationship with those people.

It's weird to me so many people in America feel they can't talk to anyone but strangers on their internet or paid specialists about their sexual issues. Sex is generally a pretty normal part of life, especially between two married people, and yet everyone feels they can't talk about it at all. It's an unhealthy mindset IMO.

is it particularly american to avoid bothering others with my own problems of any kind?

i live in the pnw which is somewhat infamous for its "mind your own business" culture. we have a transplant friend from the midwest who seem less shameful in asking for what amounts to free labor and i wonder if its a regional cultural thing within the US.

if forced by auditors to bother others with my problems, intimacy issues would be near the end of the list.

if this is american, which cultures encourage bothering others with personal problems?

I'm mostly agreeing with anal_reactor, that for most people there are hierarchies of closeness one will probably have with other people. I'm not talking about chatting up intimacy issues with any random neighbor or business contact, I'm talking about close friends and relatives.

Once again, not just out of the blue calling up that cousin you haven't spoken to in a decade and start unloading on them about your emotional issues of the day, but people in your life that truly know the day to day you. And I'm also not saying we should all invite our friends over for some barbecue and then just start sharing every detail of our sex lives. But if we are having problems in the intimate parts of our lives, we should have some people who we can talk to about it. People who understand your deep values, people who understand your goals in life, people who really get you and love you.

I think more people should probably have more deep connections with others. Everyone sees it as "bother others with my problems" and then we wonder why we have such a mental health crisis in this country and have a loneliness epidemic. Almost as if these things are related...nah! Seriously, is there absolutely nobody in your life who you think wouldn't find it a bother to listen to whatever is emotionally unsettling you? That the only way for anyone to help you with a problem would be to pay them? This would seem incredibly distressing to me, to feel like I have no real close community at all.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have paid professionals for mental health resources as well. They absolutely have a place, and I think a lot of Americans don't utilize these services enough for a multitude of reasons. But in the same way you don't go to the ER for a minor cut you shouldn't have to rely on paid therapists for your day to day emotional issues.

As for asking about free labor, once again it really depends on the context of the request and the relationship I have with the person. Once again, hierarchies of relationships. I've absolutely asked friends and neighbors to help work on a project around the house, and I've absolutely been one of those people asked to help and been there. I wouldn't think anything of the ask, and I wouldn't think anything of someone saying no to me asking. It would definitely depend on the context though. A random stranger knocking on my door asking me to redo their whole home's plumbing? Probably not! A neighbor I've talked to a few times asking for a spare set of hands for a minute as they hang something outside? If I have a minute, sure thing, I'll be right there. A close friend needing a hand pulling some ethernet cable throughout their home or work on refinishing their billiard table or painting a room? I'll grab some beers and be there in an hour.

My home is the first house in the neighborhood, so I tend to get a number of people who have minor car trouble break down stop in front. I go out there with a tool bag and a sealed bottle of water ready to help every time I see someone out there. But oh no, what a nut, offering all that free labor to absolute strangers.

> bothering others with personal problems

Ultimately my point is people should have other people in their lives where talking about intimate details and issues in their lives shouldn't be seen as a bother, but as something they would want to help with. And that I think it's a symptom of our society being sick that so many people think helping others, even supposedly close friends and family, with their issues is being bothered.

Do you find they look at you the same way your CEO did? If not, you apparently have unusually "special" relationships.

Sometimes. Those who don't usually also enjoy hearing me in a much more relaxed tone, whereas those who do end up perceiving me through the lens of much more official language. I still fail to see what's so absurd about this.

Do you... literally talk to your boss the same way you talk to your best friend?

This is a very confusing discussion.

If you live in a Robert Heinlein Stranger in a Strange Land-esque sex positive utopia where you're constantly going around talking about sex to everyone and getting positive reception, talk about it with your CEO as well, I guess?

I don't talk to my work relationship only CEO about anything sexual. That's just common sense, and is built into our social mores, no need for some hokey Mr. Blahblah unless he wants to be called that explicitly, and I'm fine with that.

Interesting choice of username, given this comment ;-)

If you address him as anything more than Mr Reactor you'll learn all about what he gets up to...

He's anal

>I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name.

Me too. There are still German companies where coworkers address others with Herr or Frau followed by their last name.

I find it also interesting how people that learn German understand the difference between the "you" in formal ("sie") and informal ("du") version, but often don't understand in which context du use them. In most cases you can use the informal "du" nowadays, especially when you are out with somebody for a beer.

After elementary school we had this interesting shift form addressing the other children with first name to addressing them with last name. We were circa 11 years old.

It's a generational thing. There has definitely been a change in recent years, especially the younger generation can no longer do much with the formal “Sie”, but of course they know it. I am 46 years old and have grown up with and been familiar with the “Du/Sie” dichotomy from the very beginning. It also has many advantages and offers clear relationships: There is no ambiguity as to which pronouns I use to address someone, older people and superiors always use “Sie”. With younger people/peers of the same age, you can quickly agree on a “Du”. These days, it's unclear to me who I can address as “Du”. I'm a friend of clarifying this before starting, but it's always a meta conversation, which can hinder the flow of conversation. Besides, it's a kind of badge of honor and a sign of trust when you're offered a “Du”. When I address anyone of our management team as “Du” these days, it irritates me - I'm not “best friends” with them, nor do I feel closer or more connected. For me, the distinction is/was never an expression of whether you are on an equal footing or not.

Interesting how you write "Du" and not "du". I'm French and I've been living in Germany for 20 years. I understand and use "du/Sie" more or less appropriately (we have the same dichotomy in French). What I still cannot wrap my head around after all this time is why/when some people use "du/Du", "dein/Dein", "dich/Dich" in writing (to be clear: not at the beginning of a sentence). I guess "Du" is somewhere inbetween "du" und "Sie" on the politeness scala but I never dared to ask. I'm only using lowercase "du". What would be a rule of thumb on how/when to use the uppercase "Du"?

"Du" and "du" are generally 100% equivalent. Regular casing-rules apply, e.g. in the beginning of a sentence it's "Du" but inside it's "du". "Kannst du mir helfen?". "Du kannst dir doch selbst helfen!"

Sometimes it's written "Du" even if in the middle of the sentence when addressing someone directly. It's technically incorrect, but it's used for emphasis and hence politeness, and that's probably where your feeling comes from.

The same can happen with other words that are getting capitalized for similar reasons, but when going strictly by the book it's grammatically incorrect. An example would be "das Große Ganze" where it should be "große" but it is capitalized to emphasize the connection/phrase.

>It's technically incorrect, but it's used for emphasis and hence politeness, and that's probably where your feeling comes from.

That's wrong, it's not technically incorrect. In fact before 2006 the only correct way to address someone personally in written form was to capitalize the Du / Sie / Ihr. Since then you are allowed to write it either way. I still use the capitalized form because I'm old and that's what I learned back in school.

Fair enough.

> Since then you are allowed to write it either way

Okay, my interpretation is that it doesn't really make sense within the language rules, so they changed it but allowed to use the old style to make the transition easier. ;-)

> I still use the capitalized form because I'm old and that's what I learned back in school.

Impossible to keep up with all the Rechtschreibreformen anyways.

Thank you and nosebear for the clarification! Now I understand better why some of my colleagues (like my boss, older) use "Du" and some don't. I'll stick to not using it, there are enough grammatic pitfalls elsewhere in the German language (not that French is any easier for foreigners, I'm sure).

I love and hate German for this; it's a language whose formal pitfalls and vagaries seem almost designed to sort people into highly-refined strata of education.

It must be so cool to see all of them "from the top" (i.e. someone who has been natively-and-highly educated, immersed in the language for their whole life); but it's from the outside it's like a fancy club that you just can't seem to get into :)

It seems sort of like calling other people ma'am and sir in America. Everyone knows what those words mean, but younger people will almost never use them (except in specific American subcultures). Some people may be offended if you call them sir/ma'am.

The way US cops talk is a whole thing. It’s one of the most-distinctive job-related American English variants. Even more so than white-collar “business English” (“let’s take this offline and circle back to it, as per my prior email”)

Some of it’s weird posturing (I’d put the “sir” thing in that category) and a bunch of it’s a combination of actually-effective and folk-supposed-effective ways of speaking to dazzle jurors, plus probably some other motivations and influences thrown in (some Hollywood-military turns of phrase and vocabulary, certainly)

In Spanish the Police/Civil Guard (militarized police) does the same, they will address you like "Disculpe, caballero" - excuse me, (Gentle) Sir. They will address you very formaly, and you might shit bricks on the road in case you messed up something or have a faulty light.

US English doesn’t really have an informal version of “sir” for the situation you described. Closest would be “hey” or “yo” etc. but those aren’t even (pro)nouns.

Sounds like a duel with a knight, so "sir" feels appropriate.

More seriously, I think it's possible that "sir" can be used in a way that casts everyone as equals. Like, you can be in a crackhead's den and recognize that he is in important person in that environment.

As a born and raised English speaker and fluent Italian speaker, I still don't love the "tu / lei". It's very... binary as to what gets used. Sometimes that's easy, but the marginal cases can be difficult to figure out.

I think the tone and posture when addressing someone convey enough formality. Like if I met Barack Obama, I would be very formal and respectful in my bearing and language, but of course still use 'you'.

In the weird edge cases you can simply err on the side of politeness and use the formal version. Worst case scenario they'll simply tell you to drop it and use tu instead.

From what I understand, it used to be similar here in Sweden, but that change with the du reform in the 60s and 70s, when people started saying "du" to everyone, and "ni" became purely plural (unless you're speaking to royalty).

We also pretty much always use first name, at least everywhere I've been. Would feel weird to call people by their last name.

ever have people at work addressing people by only their first name initial in email?

someone ive never met in person and uses my first name on work calls referring to me as "b" in email. its like the wears-a-bowtie-to-work guy of email.

come across a few of these people and have never noticed a tell they were that type of person outside the text of their email

It's interesting. My closest friends use my last name, while everyone else uses my first name at work. Apparently it was a hangover from the custom at old British public schools that some old Indian schools retained into the 70s/80s. I sort of like it.

Same here, but the reason is simple - there was a bunch of people with the same first name in my class (1st grade). So we all went by our last name. And, as those still are close friends of mine, after all these decades, they (and everyone else I know from that time) use my last name when addressing me. And other people sometimes pick it up and use it too..

I went to a British private school (which we also call "public schools" to annoy Americans) and it was certainly still hanging on there into the 80s.

My brother attended the same school where we briefly overlapped so I was by default "Minter" and when the distinction was needed I was "Minter Minor" and he would have been "Minter Major".

Like many things it doesn't make much sense in retrospect.

Edit: People do still often call me "Mister Minter" where I'd expect them to use my first name, but I think they just like the alliteration. It's not old schoolfriends doing it.

This is remarkable because from my outsider glimpse German culture puts an emphasis on formality and credentials. If someone has a signature like "Dr. Ing. Prof. Anselm Schultz" am sure not opening my email with "Hi Anselm".

It changed a lot in the last 25 years. But it can depend from place to place. One of my friends has a Master of Engineering and he was a bit surprised when somebody in Austria addressed him with "Oh, Herr Ingenieur!"

Austria is special. Using an academic title is customary, and job titles are still common. Many foreigners think Austria and Germany are similar in terms of culture, but there are notable differences between the two countries that can be traced back to their history. I have an Austrian mother and a German father, so I experienced both cultures.

Mr. Doctor Professor

I appreciate that too at my former university in Germany, it's kinda "very modern" and people always use their first names for everything, professors and students alike. But it gets complicated when emailing professors that are only losely related to the uni.

It's quite common, even the norm these days, to address people by their first names in professional settings, among colleagues.

The thing is that this is also becoming/has become the norm when you get correspondance from strangers when the standard etiquette is to use title + surname, as in all European countries, I suppose.

Now, I think when people address you by your surname only, either orally or in writing, it is irritating.

Well, I personally find title + surname the worst; it's obnoxious and elitist; my (first) name isn't "engineer". I can live with it, though. I just kinda hate people who demand it of others.

So, clearly, you can't please everybody.

By title I mean "Mister", etc. Perhaps "Engineer" is a German thing ;)

And then you must know (if this is a system: store) the person's preferred gender, and in some cultures marital status.

Not all European countries. We phased the title and surname addressing out during the 70s here in Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen

Personally I get annoyed only if a sales person addresses me by first name. There is no other setting where I would prefer a stranger to address me using my full name, unless we’re in some context where there are dozens or hundreds of strangers so one can not expect my name is unique.

Tangent:

My father's family is German and all of the males in the family only used their middle name for everything except legal and financial documents. For example, Carl Hans Schmidt (to pick a semi-made-up example) would introduce himself as Hans to everyone he met, and the family would refer to him as Hansi.

I always wondered if that was a German (or regional) tradition, or a fun family quirk.

(The males have all regrettably passed on but I asked my aunts once and they said they had no idea why or how that was a thing, that's just what they did.)

Spanish too. Francisco Javier -> Javi, or maybe Paco (Francisco), but Javi would be the obvious case.

Francisco -> Paco from Saint Francis holding a Pater Comunitatis title in Latin.

But, as a weirder case:

José María -> Chema

Luis María -> Luisma

Juan Manuel -> Juanma

José Manuel -> Chema/Josema

Juan Ramón -> Juanra

María José (women's name) -> Marijose

My personal favourite is Juan Carlos -> Juanca. Sounds great in British English.

Yeah I have had bosses refer to me by my last name and it's effin irritating. I almost always prefer relaxed, casual attitudes more than frumpy traditionalist for no good reason situations. I understand rare formal occasions but I don't want to put on some mask of formality every day. I consider everyone equal, at least as far as value as a human being. Just treat me with respect, I'm fine with you using my first name.

These things come and go across times and cultures. Even in the United States, which many people think of as highly informal, it was once common to refer to almost everyone outside the family formally. My grandmother talked to her next door neighbor everyday and they said "Hello, Mrs. G-" and "How are you, Mrs. S-". You also see this in 19th century American and English literature ("Mr. Darcy")

At least when I was growing up, it was still the norm in the South/Texas. My parents would have never referred to the elderly in our neighborhood by their first names.

I also great up in Texas (30yo now). I was raised to always say sir/ma'am but for most adults that I knew well, we were on a first name basis. Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and anyone in a teaching role.

Teachers were always addressed by Mr/Mrs/Ms and this extended into Scouts as well. For anyone I don't know, I tend to just say "sir/ma'am" (employee at the grocery store for example) unless. If the person has a professional title that I know of, I will use the title (Dr. Martin, Professor Lake, etc).

My parents I suppose were very similar. Sir/Ma'am for most interactions, but I don't recall hearing a Mr/Mrs/Ms when they referenced other people in our lives.

Since I've moved to Europe a few years back, I'm trying to follow the local customs more, which at first glance seem very similar (Netherlands). Formal for strangers, informal for basically everyone else. I've tried using the formal with some older neighbours and they always tell me stop immediately!

> Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and anyone in a teaching role.

That brings up an actually interesting exception. At my church, the pastors were the only adults we'd ever call by their first name, sort of. Our pastor, for example, was always Brother Mike, not Pastor <Last Name>.

Are you certain that Brother Mike wasn't a monk as well, so in a religious context "Brother Mike" was his only proper name?

AIUI a Catholic monk who is also an ordained priest is addressed as Father not Brother (certainly this is true of the Dominicans I've met).

I think this is also true for Orthodox monks.

I'm not sure if there's a Christian denomination that has pastors who aren't priests, and also has monks. So this sounds to me more like a situation where all fellow members of the church are addressed as Brother/Sister.

> I was raised to always say sir/ma'am

I also grew up in Texas and to this day I still tend to use sir/ma'am for most adults I don't know. Every now and then it seems to throw people off. People don't seem to expect to hear "Yes, sir" very often it seems.

I think there's a difference between "excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet" and "yessir".

In rural Georgia my father's wife, still 15+ years my senior, would always "yessir" and "no sir" me, just as she did with everyone else (ma'am for women, of course). And this was in the past 10 years. Even my half-siblings from rural Alabama do that generally, but not nearly so strictly with family like myself. Use of last names, though, is still reserved for non-family elders.

Conversely, in coastal California that kind of speech is actively (even aggressively) discouraged, such as in public schools, higher grades, especially. It's still appreciated in more traditional communities, though, such as black or immigrant Asian communities. Code switching isn't limited to certain minority groups; even affluent coastal white folks often end of code switching.

Now that I know that every culture approaches this differently, it takes zero effort to not be annoyed when someone does something different than what I expect.

^^^ what this cunt said

found the australian

Irish, we're basically proto-austalis

With 'ned' in the username I might've thought Glaswegian. :D

Giving respect based on seniority is one of the major reasons why autocracies thrive unchecked in some countries as younger people are unable to hold older folks accountable.

In its extreme shapes maybe, but just paying respect to the elders for having lived much longer and seen so much more, is something that should be normal in my opinion.

It used to be a lot more reasonable back in the day.

When the world didn't change as quickly, or didn't change at all, the elders truly knew everything the young ones knew, and so much more. They had truly seen everything and had plenty of experience with the problems young people were struggling with.

This very much isn't the case any more. I'm in my twenties (technically part of gen Z), but I already feel like I don't understand the Tiktok-using, trap-loving part of my generation. The 14-18 year olds probably have very different issues now than I did at that age, and that wasn't even so long ago. People from my parents' generation are out of the loop completely, their world still revolves around linear TV, college as a path for success in life etc.

Oh, I am also not asking my grandparents for concrete life or technical advice. I am just talking about respect of their age, what they experienced and lived through.

I really don't get why just the concept of deserving respect for having lived longer - why does that make you more deserving of respect, irrespective of how you lived?

Just the fact that they lived so much longer. And are usually more wise in life experience.

That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in general.

But the default for me is paying respect for the elders. Offering them my seat in the train if there is no other, etc.

> Just the fact that they lived so much longer.

But... why does living longer in and of itself command an extra degree of respect?

> And are usually more wise in life experience.

assertion ;)

> That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in general.

> But the default for me is paying respect for the elders.

> Offering them my seat in the train if there is no other, etc.

I offer old people my seat because they'll likely feel pain if they have to stand up for a while, they might fall down if the bus goes bump, etc. I won't be pained by standing up for 45 minutes so it doesn't really come at any cost to me.

i.e. I'm not giving up my seat because I respect old people for being old.

> Just the fact that they lived so much longer.

That's not a reason, you're just repeating the question. "Having lived long" is a value neutral statement of fact. How do you derive value from that?

> And are usually more wise in life experience.

So is that your true/only reason, a statistical probability of "knowing more"?

"That's not a reason, you're just repeating the question. "Having lived long" is a value neutral statement of fact. How do you derive value from that?"

It is a reason in itself.

I don't know if I manage to live 10 years more, not speaking of 50 years more.

Living long is a achievent on its own, not be brought down early by life. Because there is a lot that life has to offer to bring you down.

That requires a minimum of wisdom.

~99% of people manage that, it's like the worst possible indicator for the wisdom or quality of a person.

All while at the same time putting everybody who didn't get the chance yet below them. It feels very arbitrary - there are a lot of better indicators than age for that.

Maybe lets have a talk in 50 years about it?

Think of it more as a little extra atop the basic courtesy due to all people (unless they prove otherwise).

I see basic courtesy as required, but respect must be earned and can be withdrawn. Respect is earned through good behavior, not by simply growing old.

I'm not sure tik tok expertise implies worldliness or wisdom :)

Sorry -- "trap-loving"?

A genre of music.

It's a tougher sell when the younger generation gets the short end of the stick.

In a way that would be a good barometer of how that society thinks it's doing and how promising the younger generation sees its future, as prepared by their elders.

It's all the more interesting in countries where the population pyramid if fully reversed, and elders have way more power than the younger working class.

seniority as in rank, and respect for elders as in filial piety in East Asia are two very different things. Autocracy relies on execution of arbitrary power, and the latter places a limit on it. It's why after the revolution in China, Confucianism is the first thing they tried to get rid of. I stayed in Beijing during the covid lockdowns and there was one group of people that could do what they wanted "dancing grannies", old people who meet up to dance in public parks because messing with them was seen as too offensive.

Autocracy is usually driven by the opposite, unrestricted mobilization of the youth. In particular true in the West today. Bukele is not exactly a pensioner, and if the US has displayed one thing in recent times it isn't respect for the age of their leaders to put it mildly.

Yes, but traditionalist power structures are still authoritarian. Insamuch as they oppose autocracies, it is by virtue of having got there first and not yielding power to the new tyrant[0]. The problem is not the age of the ruler, or the legitimacy of the power structure, but the resulting distribution of power.

Insamuch as Confucian filial piety can be a check on upstart autocrats, that's useful, but not sufficient. There's nothing stopping the Maoist autocracy from embracing Confucius[1]; Mao just didn't want to for ideological reasons. Autocrats are ultimately building a coalition of scam victims that are all locked in the same room with one another. They don't care who's in the room as long as they won't unify against the leader.

In the US, we have Trump, the oldest US President in history, with, to put it mildly, "autocratic ambitions". His coalition includes old people, who vote early and often, and want to impose the social order of the 1950s upon the country. Almost[2] nothing about them suggests that they're going to meaningfully check Trump's power anytime soon; if anything, they're the only[3] faction of the Trump coalition that's gotten anything out of the deal.

[0] If the autocrat wins, they will eventually just become the new traditionalist power structure. Every pirate wants to become an admiral.

[1] Mussolini recognized the Vatican as a sovereign state purely to get the Pope to shut up about him.

[2] Insert clip of some old guy vandalizing a Cybertruck here.

[3] No, I don't count pardoning Ross Ulbricht. The Libertarian Party sold their soul for a donut.

Everyone in Yugoslavia was called "Drug" (pronounced droog, Friend), it'd be hard to claim it wasn't autocratic. Same with the USSR and China.

Communist Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc and China was supposed to be flat and everyone was "comrade". Did that prevent autocracy?

I spent almost 10 years trying to avoid calling my mother and father in law by their first names. In my home country's language there are words for "mother in law" and "father in law" you can use in a second person context, but English doesn't have any. My wife has the opposite problem. She's gotten stuck calling my parents "Mr. XYZ" and "Mrs. XYZ."

My inlaws are addressed "mom" and "dad" - is that weird?

I've decided that in English, every way to address your inlaws is weird until you settle on something specifically with them. "Mom" and "Dad" or "John" and "Jane", both will be weird until you've used them for a while.

And if they don't like what you picked, you'll know pretty quick.

Mumble years ago I started using "Mom" and "Dad" as soon as we got married; my wife did the same with my folks — and my folks did the same with my grandparents.

It’s somehow both too familiar and overly deferential. Vis-a-vis my wife’s parents, I’m not a child, but an adult, though of less seniority.

I never truly understood linguistic formality until I was teaching a class and one of the students addressed me as “Josh”. My full name is “Joshua” and students virtually always used to call me that, but that semester, the computer system put my name as “Josh” and it felt weirdly disrespectful when a student called me that even though I know none was intended.

I feel like tu vs vous is extra annoying in French when you're speaking to someone who's not a stranger. I have no desire to judge if you think you're too famous of eg a professor for me to say tu, your success doesn't create a hierarchy between us, and it's annoying if you think so. I much prefer English for that.

It's not really a question of fame but more of respect, we are not relatives, so you do not use tu.

it's ok if we both do it, not just one

agree to disagree

It's interesting for me as I'm Serbian but grew up in Indonesia. In Serbian we very much have honorifics (I think honorifics is the wrong word, not sure what the correct one is) and rules like "Younger always addresses the older with vi instead of ti, and vama instead of tebi etc. unless you're relatives or are close", but it also applies generally for strangers, so even if you're the same age or even if you're older, it's more polite to use the formal forms.

In Indonesia nobody really cares too much, and I called my teachers everything from "Ibu X" (Ibu meaning ma'am/miss, but also mother) to their first names or a mixture like "Ibu FirstOrLastName". At best you'll get a "bapak/ibu" which is basically just sir/ma'am, but I've been called "kak" (lit. translated it's something like "little sister/brother", it's a very asian concept and a lot of cultures have the same, like oniichan).

I always struggle when I go back to Serbia, 'cause I wasn't really brought up with the importance of honorifics. It feels weird when I get a kid using honorifics with me, feels like I'm 60 (I'm in my 20s), and likewise people look at me like I just spat in their face if I don't use the honorifics sometimes.

Language is truly fascinating!

I live in Montevideo, here people use "usted" (the formal "you" in Spanish) to show respect to older people. But there's no strict rule about when to switch from "tu" (informal you) to "usted". So you kind of guess based on how old someone looks.

The problem is, if you say "usted" to someone who doesn't see themselves as old, they might take offence. So, trying to be polite in Uruguay can backfire if your mental age calculation is off!

I try to get people to avoid my first name, mostly because they can't pronounce it. The only time I had a stranger pronounce it right was when we were meeting w/ the Republic of Ireland tech transfer office.

O, Mev!

Would addressing you by your mail address work ?

Handling people's name is I think the bane of our field, and leads to many of the awful choices like forcing fields with a first and last name for instance, or requesting people's gender to properly set the Mr and Mrs. As a dev I'm not happy about it, as a user I hate it, I'm not sure the majority of people are happy either with the current state of things.

Accepting that it's a machine sending the mail could simplify all of this quite a bit, provided people are fine by being addressed in an impersonal and inorganic way.

If you mean snail mail address, no it wouldn't. It's common to share these between people who have the same last (or sometimes first) names. Things get really fun when it's. both, e.g. a man marrying somebody who has the same first name as their sister. This actually happened in my (distant) family.

If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no. People sometimes sign up from addresses like [email protected], and "dear contact" would be super confusing.

The "right thing to do" is to have a "what should we call you" field, which should be completely separate from any names collected for legal purposes, if any.

> If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no. People sometimes sign up from addresses like [email protected], and "dear contact" would be super confusing.

I was going for the principle that we're not trying to mimic human emotions when it's a mail to remind you to accept the latest TOS.

So, no "Dear", no trying to come up with something socially acceptable, just plain "[email protected], please review our newest Terms and Services at https://....../...."

The "what should we call you" field sounds attractive, but would be ripe for abuse IMHO. Not on technical terms, but users would definitely play with it to have you send "Mrs DeepshitFuckHorse please confirm your email at...." to random addresses for instance, or any other vector that we're not thinking about right now.

Earlier everything was based on 'handles' and using them was fine and expected.. As networks adopt everyone and become used for formal things it's gotten more complicated to integrate rules of different systems.

I've started to prefer messages that just start with "Hello,".

This is already plenty common with names.

I tend to use fuck/off as name/surname for completely throwaway accounts, and "dear mr. Fuck" is something I received once.

When I was in university, a friend of mine used to address me by my unix username.

Only one?

You got off light. I had a good number of people call me by my username at my undergrad.

When I went to grad school, they let us select user ids. My user name matched my first name, most elegant solution to that problem yet ;)

This rules and your friend is awesome

It's not unusual for people to use the name they know you by. In high school, there was someone who addressed me as Ix, the name I used in multiplayer Duke Nukem. He didn't know my name.

There are several people I know primarily through wechat, where it's almost always unnecessary to address people by name because messages have only one recipient. Sometimes this has led to conversations like this:

> What should I call you? 颖？

> OK.

[I was not especially reassured by that response.]

> re was someone who addressed me as Ix, the name I used in multiplayer Duke Nukem

Heh, there are still some people who call me by my nickname back from 2000s. It doesn't help what it means something between "the beast" and "the thing" and I had people of the old clout be quite offended by it. Including my mother.

Very interesting! I work for (probably) the most well known German company. Here, it's always advised to use the first name & the 2nd person singular pronoun ("du"; you) instead of the more formal third person plural pronoun ("Sie"; you)

Company standards differ and every time you meet someone new, say in a Teams-Meeting, the older person generally offers you to use "Du". You may or may not accept it

It's basically "respecting your elders"

While I (21 years of age) talk with my boss on this personal level, I can't get myself to address other older (higher ranked) employees by their first name. Saying Mr. or Mrs. is kinda required for me as the person I am, because I always try to respect them. (This doesn't apply to some other older (higher ranked) employees, those with which I don't have much to work with. While I do respect them, it's not the same type of respect I have for them)

This may sound very confusing and it even is for me, as I am not German and merely adapt to what is the cultural standard here.

My culture we address everyone by their first name. The only thing we must absolutely add are the social prefixes for older folks (typically above a 5 year range? depends on some factors.) I could never address, mention or talk about uncle / aunt XYZ as just XYZ. It's very crucial to always add that, especially for people you know. If you don't know them, just say the preferred prefix as well, it shows a basic level of respect We don't really use our surnames - it's more to identify, who exactly we are talking about. For example, when talking about "Michael", but the involved in the conversation don't know who we're talking about we usually just say "from the house of surname" (house of is the literal translation)

Spaniard here; addressing someone by the last name looks really outdated.

As a tourist, it's a cheat code to be hyper formal. Gets you instant goodwill.

Spanish has actually three levels of formality when addressing someone by name:

<First name>: Informal, casual conversation.

Don <First name>: More formal, conveys respect while still indicating some closeness.

Señor <Last name>: Most formal, normally used in writing.

Using only someone's last name is just plain weird. If you want to speak formally to someone just address them as "usted", it will get you the same goodwill without sounding off.

Don it's very outdated unless you address a very important person.

Don is especially susceptible to huge regional differences. It's as GP described in Honduras and I think as you described in Spain.

I agree it's more likely to be used by older generations but it's not uncommon to hear it around either, especially when addressing or refering to elders

Well, corporation addressing clients would use señor/señora but between older/middle aged men. For anyone under 40 it looks a bit old-fashioned. They would just switch to an 'usted/ustedes' person (formal you/yall, for HN speakers) and no one will feel like they were in 1960.

And even with that, people under 35 will just stay at the informal (normal you) "tu" case.

Same.

The only situation where I call people by their last name in my language is when it's their nickname. Like there were two "Johns" so we call the second one "Smith".

In Portugal it's very associated with military service. I don't think I've ever been addressed by my last name here.

In Spain maybe if you are something really important or being addressed on very formal environments. Maybe a boss/manager from a corporation addressing clients...

Has tutoiement changed too? How does that work with machines, do they always use vous form?

Typically machines/websites should use "vous", but it is more and more common to read "tu", depending on the target audience and the company marketing.

I'm Lithuanian but lived over 15 years (near half my lifetime) in UK and NZ.

I love the informality and my brain struggles a bit when I speak Lithuanian, esp when I know I should be using formal addressing, but I'm not sure I want to.

When I moved to the US it was a cultural shock to have people call me by my first name. But I got used to it quickly and now everything else seems awkward, especially since my last name is hard to pronounce.

And with french you also have Tu vs Vous.

I am almost at the halfway point of my life expectancy, and I do actually prefer people using my first name over my last name.

In Korean, you can never address someone older by their first name. Yes not even your blood brother or sister.

we've all seen https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-..., yeah?

Ah yes, the worst is Discord who always says "tu", who are you? do I know you? Did we herd geese together at some point :D ?

"I don't want to be your buddy, Rick. I just want a little breakfast."

That's literally all language.

All language is socially constructed. It's still annoying when people try to change the meanings of words.