For whatever reason, the Palestine/Israel conflict causes people to just stop being rational. Like, the facts are there, both parties attack each other as part of the conflict throughout history, but for whatever reason, people really want to pick sides on this one, and Im not sure why.
Its not the genocide aspect - there are other genocides that are happening (Myanmar for example) that don't cause this reaction. Don't think its anti antisemitism either, as you don't see a lot of narratives that come with traditional rhetoric of that type.
Whoever is pushing media out on this is must have figured something out in the format to make people this polarized.
Nobody has been able to explain to me how the Israel/Palestine issue is fundamentally different from the Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo issue of the 1990s. Its weird the mental gymnastics people will go through to qualify any position in either of these events.
The major difference is Israel is one of the only modern states that cannot and will not extend citizenship and property rights to the majority of people under their control who existed there when the nation was founded because it would upend the ethnic makeup of the country. They will also not allow the creation of a state for those people, forcing them to be stateless.
None of that applies in Serbia / Bosnia / Kosovo, as far as I can tell. That is more like a separatist movement situation like what you see in Kurdistan, Kashmir, etc.
27% of Israeli citizens are not Jews, but Arabs. They have full citizenship, vote, hold office, etc.
Gaza is a competely separate country/territory. They have no connection to the modern Israeli state. If anything they should be asking for Egyptian or Jordanian citizenship since the majority have kin relationships and history from there.
If Gaza were a separate country then why would Israel restrict and regulate access to Gaza without an international embargo? For all practical considerations Gaza looks like a territory fully controlled by Israel. That begs the further question that if Gaza is controlled by Israel why is Israel so opposed to treating these people more equitably?
The reason this looks like some tribal/racial/dominance thing is because these questions and conditions apply almost equally to the West Bank. There is video evidence of multiple settler pogroms in the West Bank.
All of the rest of the world sees basically the same violent conclusions. The only people making excuses for it are some Israelis the rest of the world refers to as extremists.
> 27% of Israeli citizens are not Jews, but Arabs. They have full citizenship, vote, hold office, etc.
How does that have anything to do with the conflict? Could there ever be 51% of Israeli citizens who are non-Jewish Arabs? That tells you why Israel will not extend rights to the majority of subjects under it's territorial control.
> Gaza is a competely separate country/territory
It is not. Israel does not recognize it as such, and Israel controls all the borders, all the electricity, all the water, all the Internet and essentially all the external commerce of the region, it even controls the waters off shore of the region.
Egypt had only one elected head of state, who was anti-Israel, and he has since died in prison overthrown by an autocrat who sides with the US and Israel and does their bidding. Also, at this moment, Israel controls that border completely, and they have vetoed hostage deals that would require relinquishing that control.
But you of course didn't answer anything else I said, despite being wrong about the one thing you picked out of my response
Palestine is used as a proxy by Iran to essentially wage war on Israel, because or a lack of better term, they are still salty about a different religious group being on "their" land (and to be accurate, was technically taken from them, but it was because they were on the losing side of WW1)
But Iran cannot engage in war directly, as they would be seen as aggressors.
Israel on the other hand is forced into basically a lose/lose/lose situation. Its either suck it up and wait for Oct 7 part deux to happen, be genocided themselves if one state is implemented, or be seen as the bad guys in pushing further and further, hoping to take over enough land to make the former 2 not an issue.
I call bullshit. If you use your imagination hard enough then just maybe you could explain the military action in Gaza as warfare… but how does that extend to the West Bank? There is no warfare in the West Bank, but there are Israeli settlers murdering Palestinians without consequences while stealing land in illegal settlements.
> Israel is forced
Again, that’s bullshit. Nobody is forcing Israel to be an asshole to their neighbors. Israel was the victim in 1967, nearly 60 years. It’s not 1967 anymore. A universal rule of life is if you don’t want people to think of you as an asshole then start by not being an asshole, not with a bunch of excuses and sad equivocations.
I suspect Israel would try much harder to be less of a belligerent asshole if they were placed on a weapons embargo. Israel is often seen as the bad guy, because their actions make them the bad guy.
If Israel really didn’t want Iran to use the Palestinian people as a puppet they could solve the problem by not giving the Palestinian people cause to be puppets. For example, Iran would lose all political influence around Israel if Israel annexed the Palestinian people with rights, protections, and citizenship.
I really don’t think Israel wants this issue solved. I really think it’s about tribalism and conquest. That’s why I cannot see any difference between Israel/Palestine and Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo. It’s all sociopathic tribalism with lots of military aggression against civilians while claiming to be victims.
Exactly what I mean about seeing things from one side.
>but how does that extend to the West Bank?
When your country history includes all of your surrounding neighbors going to war to try to exterminate you, and that sentiment hasn't changed, you are going to be probably very expansionist. Not that the west bank settlements are morally right and they certainly don't help the cause, but the actions are somewhat understandable.
>Again, that’s bullshit. Nobody is forcing Israel to be an asshole to their neighbors.
Oct 7th kinda is. Nothing really significant happened much other than minor land grabs in the West Bank and standard counter terrorism stuff with occasional rockets being launched by Hamas. Oct 7th highlighted the clear and present danger that still exists, where Hamas doesn't care about fighting a war and care more about killing non-muslims, civilians and military personnel alike.
> Israel is often seen as the bad guy, because their actions make them the bad guy.
Because most people who consume online media tend to only hear about the bad things Israel does. Goes back to the discussion about other genocides and how those are never talked. Like I said, the media narrative on this is insanely effective to make people polarized.
>Israel annexed the Palestinian people with rights, protections, and citizenship.
Try to be rational about this. The last thing they want is giving potential Hamas members or radical extremists free access to the country + citizenship. Majority of Palestinians are still pro Hamas.
>I really think it’s about tribalism and conquest.
Again, try to be rational. Is it tribalism, or do they just want a future where citizens don't have to worry about terrorist attacks or getting rocketed anymore? Its not like Israel never tried peaceful solutions - most all of them get shot down because Palestinians want "their" land back, or at the least in control of the majority of that region ("from the river to the sea") that puts Israel at a huge disadvantage and greater risks for attacks.
> Again, try to be rational. Is it tribalism, or do they just want a future where citizens don't have to worry about terrorist attacks or getting rocketed anymore?
That’s exactly what Milosevic argued to justify attacking his neighbors. We have to get them before they get us
I am being rational and cannot imagine any justification for the complete eradication of Gaza or the illegal settlements in the West Bank.
If this is, after all, only about safety and security then why isn’t Israel annexing those people into citizenship? Rationally speaking it would eliminate most of the domestic threat simultaneously legally qualify the West Bank settlements. Again, it really appears Israel would rather have tribalism than security.
It’s not difficult. I apparently guessed your sentiment accurately even though I was actually describing the first head of state to be convicted of war crimes for promoting genocide and ethnic cleansing.
But, let’s make this even less difficult. Is the goal here security or dominance? Security suggests reducing hostilities but dominance suggests removing a group of people from an area of land. I really don’t see any reduction of hostilities.
Illegal according to who? The concept of legal doesn’t apply to nation states. “Legal” presupposes an enforcement framework and process which simply doesn’t exist as it applies to sovereign countries.
But more to the point you can’t claim to be rational while using terms like “the complete eradication of Gaza”. The population in Gaza has grown since the war started.
Meanwhile in southern Syria the Druze are actually being exterminated by self-proclaimed jihadis (and Palestinian “refugees”) and the whole world is turning a blind eye while Israel desperately tries to prevent a larger catastrophe. Now the Syrian Druze are requesting to be annexed by Israel and to be under IDF protection. You don’t care about Palestinians, you just hate Jews.
Don't be disingenuous. Its far from "just a press release"; its the official position of the government of the United States. There are many other instances where different parts of the government call it illegal.
It is just a press release and regardless, what any country’s official position is, is irrelevant. Legality generally doesn’t apply to international relations as each state makes their own determination on what does and doesn’t apply to them.
For example the current US ambassador to Israel just announced that France will be partitioned into two states, one for France and one for Palestine, France isn’t bound by that.
I can use terms like complete eradication. What percentage of buildings in Gaza remain in safe enough conditions for people to live in? The entire strip looks like a flattened dust pile.
Yes, killing civilians is bad regardless of their identity. It seems like you are trying to shift ground to something unrelated because you have nothing of actual substance.
Now how is the conduct by Israel not tribal warfare on a nearly genocidal scale?
When someone is asked to stop being evil and their response is to deflect and then lie, we can conclude that they are gonna continue doing that evil thing.
Defending colonization and genocide is evil. You are defending both, while accusing others of heinous atrocities without any demonstrable evidence, qed.
One cannot colonize their own land. Arabs and Muslims are not indigenous to Judea and Samaria, they are colonizers who invaded and ethnically cleansed the area and then hilariously refer to it as a part of a different country (west bank of what?).
If that were true it would be a problem, since it’s just lies told by hamas that you are now repeating for some reason we don’t have to worry about it.
Here are your starving gazans: https://x.com/DocumentIsrael/status/1948045924099367359 they have fresh fruit that looks perfectly ripe… so interesting that no aid is getting in and yet somehow they’re holding fruit I sometimes have trouble finding in my supermarket here in the US…
Again, read that article lol, it doesn’t actually support the thing you’re saying. It has a claim by a soldier without any supporting proof. Same with the CNN article, there is literally zero video evidence supporting your claim in the most recorded war in history, ask yourself why that is? Why do we have video of hamas shooting their own people, video of basically every single missile landing, but this event that has apparently resulted in 500+ deaths has literally no video evidence. You would think if it was happening someone would be pointing cameras at the idf position and just watching, but somehow they’re never seem to have any evidence of it. All we have are drs making claims in hospitals… somehow the drs in field hospitals know where all their patients came from and exactly what happened to them, but no one else has any idea.
As always the question is for you: why do you hate Jews so much? Why do you want all the Jews to be killed?
Just so we’re clear I showed an actual video of Hamas with fresh fruit, the UN just shared a video of literal tons of aid they’re refusing to distribute. you shared a paywalled article quoting an anonymous source with zero verification.
You're just insulting people at this point. The OP did not say he hates Jews or want them to be killed. You should be banned by making disgusting accusations without any connection with reality.
There's overwhelming proof of intentional starvation in Gaza, by multiple different sources -- sources that don't agree with each other on pretty much anything else, by the way. Every major news outlet in the planet is reporting the same thing, but in your evil, twisted, human-hating logic, all of them are wrong and only the openly fascist government of Israel is right because they say so.
I never disagreed that some children aren’t getting food, my point always was that the UN and Hamas are responsible for this problem, the IDF in partnership with GHF are the only organizations facilitating alleviating the suffering.
The UN has literal tons of food that they’re refusing to distribute. Hamas clearly has access to fresh fruit as recently as 2 days ago and yet they refuse to share any of it with their constituents. Egypt is refusing to allow anyone to leave Gaza as a refugee. When Israel and Trump proposed resettling the refugees temporarily until the war ended they were accused by you, the UN, and every single “humanitarian” org of ethnic cleansing.
Israel is not responsible for a problem they didn’t create, don’t want and are trying very hard to prevent and end. The only people responsible for this are the ones refusing to solve it unless it allows for a genocide of Jews.
The OP and you are both determined to only consider solutions that allow for further Arab colonization and may result in the death of millions of Jews. This is why I accuse you of genocide.
I will also add, Israel is not responsible for the health and welfare of even a single Gazan citizen, that responsibility falls on Hamas, so literally anything Israel does to help the gazan citizenry is already going above and beyond. If you have a problem with the welfare of Hamas’s constituents, take it up with them. Tell them to unconditionally surrender and return the kidnapped hostages. Instead of agitating for the wholesale slaughter of Jews.
Political propaganda is a amazingly powerful thing. This bullshit above is simply a brainless regurgitation of the 70s Golda Meir quote:
"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us."
That's all there is to it - pure propaganda. No data, no evidence, no science, just pure, unadulterated propaganda from half a century ago, still very much alive and kicking.
If gazans want the war to end all they have to do is return the people they so gleefully kidnapped and continue to torture and hold hostage. Instead they point fingers and depend on brainwashed westerners without any knowledge of the conflict or history to get them out of the mess they themselves created.
I wasn’t directly referencing that but it’s literally the strongest proof, data, evidence science that she was 10000% right. Stop defending monsters because you literally have no clue what you’re talking about.
Hamas shared the videos… not sure what else you’d call it when a violent mob made up of both young and old people jostles and jeers and attacks innocent civilians and then throws rocks and chases their car. This don’t happen just once, it was a crowd of 1000s every time.
I didn't mention capitalism? I mentioned it is one of the only genocides where attempts to sanction and hold the perpetrators to account are failing on a global level. Myanmar, on the other hand, is under heavy international sanctions.
