It's like libertarianism. There is a massive gulf between the written goals and the actual actions of the proponents. It might be more accurately thought of as a vehicle for plausible deniability than an actual ethos.
The problem is that creates a kind of epistemic closure around yourself where you can't encounter such a thing as a sincere expression of it. I actually think your charge against Libertarians is basically accurate. And I think it deserves a (limited) amount of time and attention directed at its core contentions for what they are worth. After all, Robert Nozick considered himself a libertarian and contributed some important thinking on things like justice and retribution and equality and any number of subjects, and the world wouldn't be bettered by dismissing him with twitter style ridicule.
I do agree that things like EA and Libertarianism have to answer for the in-the-wild proponents they tend to attract but not to the point of epistemic closure in response to its subject matter.
When a term becomes loaded enough then people will stop using it when they don't want to be associated with the loaded aspects of the term. If they don't then they already know what the consequences are, because they will be dealing with them all the time. The first and most impactful consequence isn't 'people who are not X will think I am X' it is actually 'people who are X will think I am one of them'.
I think social dynamics are real and must be answered for but I don't think any self-correction or lacktherof has anything to do with subject matter which can be understood independently.
I will never take a proponent of The Bell Curve seriously who tries to say they're "just following the data", because I do hold them and the book responsible for their social and cultural entanglements and they would have to be blind to ignore it. But the book is wrong for reasons intrinsic to its analysis and it would be catastrophic to treat that point as moot.
I am saying that those who actually believe something won't stick around and associate themselves with the original movement if that movement has taken on traits that they don't agree with.
Literally every comment of mine explicitly acknowledged social indicators, just not to the exclusion of facts. You're trying to treat your comments like they're the mirror image of mine, but they're not.
It is not an unfair filter to (correctly!) note that I specifically accounted for this and agreed with it.
I said:
"I do agree that things like EA and Libertarianism have to answer for the in-the-wild proponents they tend to attract"
"I think social dynamics are real and must be answered for"
"I will never take a proponent of The Bell Curve seriously who tries to say they're "just following the data", because I do hold them and the book responsible for their social and cultural entanglements"
In the face of that, you're trying to claim that I'm ignoring "social indicators as a valid heuristic."
That's not true and no amount of projection or character attacks can make it true. These are verbatim quotes from both of us. You're attempting to present a point I agree with as if it's a new unacknowledged critique.
Meanwhile, when I say the subject matter of a belief system matters for its content, you don't engage with it but reply to me by re-asserting the point I agree with as if it does the work of responding to me. No amount of social signalling takes the place of evaluating intellectual content on its merits and saying "intellectual content matters" is not a denial of the importance of social signalling.
> "I do agree that things like EA and Libertarianism have to answer for the in-the-wild proponents they tend to attract"
And I said that people tend not to associate themselves with labels that have connotations that they don't like.
These two statements are not the same.
> "I think social dynamics are real and must be answered for"
Yet you completely dismiss my point.
> "I will never take a proponent of The Bell Curve seriously who tries to say they're "just following the data", because I do hold them and the book responsible for their social and cultural entanglements"
What does this have to do with group associations?
> In the face of that, you're trying to claim that I'm ignoring "social indicators as a valid heuristic."
Because you never acknowledged my point.
> That's not true and no amount of projection or character attacks can make it true.
You are the one who started with the insults, I was following suit.
> Meanwhile, when I say the subject matter of a belief system matters for its content, you don't engage with it but reply to me by re-asserting the point I agree with as if it does the work of responding to me.
Because I wasn't contesting that. I was adding something to it.
I've provided three direct quotes where I explicitly acknowledged social dynamics. You keep claiming I didn't. Now you claim you were 'just adding' and that I 'started with the insults' yet the thread shows you introduced personal criticism first with 'defensive self-regard' while my initial comments were substantive.
Most tellingly: you dismiss my direct, repeated acknowledgments as 'not counting' while claiming credit for 'adding' a point you never actually verbalized until this moment. Your standard for what constitutes 'acknowledgment' shifts based entirely on whether you're demanding it or taking credit for it.
And the Bell Curve example directly illustrates holding proponents responsible for social entanglements, the exact thing you claim I never addressed.
Saying that I am 'trying to mirror your posts' is not an insult? What is it then?
Your entire tone is disdainful and dismissive, and your constant need to insist that I am missing something when you refuse to acknowledge my basic point is tedious.
Yes, you acknowledged 'social indicators'. No, you did not acknowledge that 'people who stick around in clubs filled with other people they vehemently disagree with about core issues tend to be rare'.
If people really believe in something, it stands to reason that they aren't willing to just give up on the associated symbolism because someone basically hijacked it.
Coincidentally, libertarian socialism is also a thing.
