> It would be great for the browser become the cross-platform application target.
This is the kind of thing that I feel is very nice and terrible at the same time. Yes it is convenient but it is also such a complex piece of software, it's sad that it is required to run gui apps. Ok, it may not be required yet per say, but I have mixed feelings about this direction.
Yeah I was thinking of using it for us actually. Connects to everything, lots of plugins, etc. I wonder what the hate is from, they are all pretty bad aren't they ?
Will test forgejo's CI first as we'll use the repo anyway, but if it ain't for me, it's going to be jenkins I assume.
- DSL is harder to get into.
- Hard to reproduce a setup unless builds are in DSL and Jenkins itself is in a fixed version container with everything stored in easily transferable bind volumes; config export/import isn't straightforward.
- Builds tend to break in a really weird way when something (even external things like Gitea) updates.
- I've had my setup broken once after updating Jenkins and not being able to update the plugins to match the newer Jenkins version.
- Reliance on system packages instead of containerized build environment out of the box.
- Heavier on resources than some of the alternatives.
Pros:
- GUI is getting prettier lately for some reason.
- Great extendability via plugins.
- A known tool for many.
- Can mostly be configured via GUI, including build jobs, which helps to get around things at first (but leads into the reproducibility trap later on).
Wouldn't say there is a lot of hate, but there are some pain points compared to managed Gitlab. Using managed Gitlab/Github is simply the easiest option.
Setting up your own Gitlab instance + Runners with rootless containers is not without quirks, too.
CASC plugin + seed jobs keep all your jobs/configurations in files and update them as needed, and k8s + Helm charts can keep the rest of config (plugins, script approvals, nodes, ...) in a manageable file-based state as well.
We have our main node in a state that we can move it anywhere in a couple of minutes with almost no downtime.
I'll add another point to "Pros": Jenkins is FOSS and it costs $0 per developer per month.
I have a previous experience with it. I agree with most points. Jobs can be downloaded as xml config and thus kept/versioned. But the rest is valid. I just don't want to manage gitlab, we already have it at corp level, just can't use it right now in preprod/prod and I need something which will be either throwaway or kept just for very specific tasks that shouldn't move much in the long run.
For a throwaway, I don't think Jenkins will be much of a problem. Or any other tool for that matter. My only suggestion would be to still put some extra effort into building your own Jenkins container on top of the official one [0]. Add all the packages and plugins you might need to your image, so you can easily move and modify the installation, as well as simply see what all the dependencies are. Did a throwaway, non-containerized Jenkins installation once which ended up not being a throwaway. Couldn't move it into containers (or anywhere for that matter) without really digging in.
Haven't spent a lot of time with it myself, but if Jenkins isn't of much appeal, Drone [1] seems to be another popular (and lightweight) alternative.
Funny I've been poking with the latest ISO last night in a VM. ZFS on root with mirroring and boot environment is seamless, which to me is a huge enabler for a rolling release with fast update cycle, so I want to try it deeper. Currently on fedora kde spin which has a lot of quircks, with Cosmic coming out soon I'll probably switch.
Overall it works well and I like the defaults, the work done is remarkable, and it's been a huge relief considering the shitshow that's Windows 11, and even an improvement from Windows 10 which I enjoyed for years, but it lacks a bit of polish I feel, depending on what you use it for. I don't blame anybody it's really hard work to maintain something like that and a lot of things are nice, but here are some annoyances :
- It doesn't shut down properly most of the time, I have to cut the power ; which I do anyway to go to sleep but sometimes I forget after I use it in the morning before going to work, and it stays with a black screen and the fan running all day
- There are a lot of updates, a few Gbs per week, and I have to type my password several times a week (even when logged in), I can't find how to change that
- Sometimes after an update I'll lose an icon or two, or some settings like scroll speed, etc ; not a huge deal but forces me to google around to get the setting back
- Lots of apps are in flatpacks or snaps, I could try some other repos or maybe nix/guix/pkgsrc but I would lose the appstore anyway so I might as well look around for something else
- Some things seem painful to setup, nvidia drivers, incus/lxc, zfs on root... NVidia was the most important and I managed to make it work well now but didn't bother with the rest
I agree. We are going as far as being asked to release our public app on self-hosted kube cluster in 9 months, with no kube experience and nobody with a CKA in a 2.5 person ops team. "Just do it it's easy" is the name of the game now, if you fail you're bad, if you offer stability and respect delivery dates you are out-fashioned, and the discussion comes back every week and every warning and concern is ignored.
I remember a long time ago one of our client was a bank, they had 2 datacenters with a LACP router, SPARC machines, Solaris, VxFS, Sybase, Java app. They survived 20 years with app, OS and hardware upgrades and 0 second of downtime. And I get lectured by a 3 years old developer that I should know better.
This is where devops came from. Developers saw admins and said I can do that in code! Every time egotistical, eager to please developers say something is easy, business says ok, do it.
This is also where agile (developers doing project management) comes from.
It does happen that the engine doesn't immediately see that a line is best, but that's getting very rare those days. It was funny in certain positions a few years back to see the engine "change its mind" including in older games where some grandmaster found a line that was particularly brilliant, completely counter-intuitive even for an engine, AND correct.
But mostly what happens is that a move isn't so good, but it isn't so bad either, and as the computer will tell you it is sub-optimal, a human won't be able to refute it in finite time and his practical (as opposed to theoretical) chances are reduced. One great recent example of that is Pentala Harikrishna's recent queen sacrifice in the world cup, amazing conception of a move that the computer say is borderline incorrect, but leads to such complications and a very uncomfortable position for his opponent that it was practically a great choice.
At this point, why isn't Amazon shipping us products that they think we should buy ? After all we can always send them back and get a refund if we don't want them.
I used emacs at school some 15 years ago and I remember it being pretty seemless, I had an OCaml repl for one course and a 68000 emulator with memory inspection for another, and gdb integrated for C ; I do NOT remember hours of configuring that, maybe put some files at the right places and that was it. Switched to vim due to work (that was what's installed on remote machines), kept it for years because of the ubiquity.
More recently in a new gig I'm finally able to install stuff on my machine (with homebrew) and not just work remotely, wanted to revisit my choice between (neo)vim and emacs again, but I guess muscle memory is too strong and still chose the former, although trying emacs I can tell that it is maybe even better polished now with the package manager and everything. Turns out neovim has the same with lazyvim, mason, etc. Just a bit more friction sometimes maybe.
My main pain point right now is the lack of tooling for devops/sre in general. Yes we have LSPs for ansible, groovy, terraform... But they do not cover the entirety of plugins and modules that can be used, and I'm not aware of good tools for testing and debugging. Yes there is teamcity but that needs a license and I can't have that at work apparently. I don't think it is at the editor level though, just the ecosystem is lacking.
This is the kind of thing that I feel is very nice and terrible at the same time. Yes it is convenient but it is also such a complex piece of software, it's sad that it is required to run gui apps. Ok, it may not be required yet per say, but I have mixed feelings about this direction.
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