I think you ought to compare a driver running a red light vs a cyclist running a red light to make this point. I might even agree with you, but speeding is conceivably even safer than going the speed limit if everyone else around you is doing the same thing no matter what the law says.
Running traffic signals on the other hand is just plain stupid and self-centered no matter what you're piloting at the time.
I can compare drivers running red lights to cyclists running red lights based on my experience. I don't believe there's any hard data on this.
From what I can tell, drivers tend to run red lights either because the light just changed and they couldn't stop in time or because they're distracted. In contrast, cyclists who run red lights tend to wait for traffic to clear. I didn't realize the difference until I tried talking to cyclists who run red lights (not recommended by the way; they tend to be jerks). So in that sense the two are not comparable.
Plus, as bikes tend to weigh less and travel less fast than cars, the potential for harm for a cyclist running a red light is greatly reduced compared against a driver running a red light.
Here are some helmet cam videos that I took that show red light running drivers:
After the first video, I saw that the driver stopped nearby, so I went to speak with them. They admitted they were distracted. I have no idea what happened in the second video. If I were not paying attention in both cases I would not be writing this post now. In contrast, if a cyclist did the same then I'd probably be here.
That's not to say that all cyclists who run red lights look carefully. Here's a helmet cam video that I took which shows a cyclist brazenly running a red light in a way that I think is particularly dangerous:
This last one was probably the most dangerous time someone ran a red light that I've personally seen. I was wearing a high-viz jacket at the time and find it hard to believe they would not see me if they looked. They might have been blinded by the sun.
As for speeding being safer, sure, that's true sometimes, but what's the net effect? Just focusing on the good isn't representative.
I also sometimes see people bring the time saved from speeding into consideration, but in my experience speeding doesn't save much time unless you're on the highway. If you're in a more densely populated area with traffic lights, your speed is more limited by the traffic lights than anything else. I know this as a cyclist because it's not uncommon for me to see the same people at each light during my commute. The effective traffic speed is doable for a cyclist. Speeding won't get you there faster.
> I think it should be a case closed Darwin award if I hit them and kill them if I have the right of way
I'll be sure to stay away from you.
> I used to know a paramedic who would make sure that the ride to the hospital for such a cyclist was super bumpy and unpleasant so as to make that experience memorable in the hopes of encouraging them not to repeat it.
That's sadistic. Most of the time it's not the cyclist's fault.
Running a stop sign or traffic light should not be a death sentence.
Plus, there have been many times when I've been on the receiving end of dangerous "punishment passes" from drivers who believe I'm doing something illegal when I'm not. I've had people pass me aggressively because they think I'm going too slow, when the speed limit is 15 mph and I'm going 17-18 mph. I've have people pass me while yelling to get in the bike lane when there was no bike lane and I was in the sharrow lane on an official city bike route. Etc. Just because you believe someone is breaking the law does not give you the right to kill or otherwise harm them, particularly if you're wrong about the law.
Edit: I believe I misread you about the paramedic. I read it as the paramedic would give rough rides to all cyclists (and most of the time it's not the cyclist's fault that they were in a crash), but you meant they gave rough rides to only cyclists who ran red lights or stop signs. That's still bad and sadistic as far as I'm concerned.
You're right it shouldn't be a death sentence but neither should pointing a gun at your head with only one bullet in it and pulling the trigger.
They're both different versions of the same game to me. I think people who run these traffic signals do not realize how much danger they are in and I don't think such people would particularly choose to play Russian roulette. And yet there they are running red lights and stop signs.
In the split second that my car is in an intersection and and such a person comes barreling through, the best I can do is slam on my brakes and hope for the best. I'm not even going to try to get out of the way because that could only make things worse by hitting another car or pedestrians who had nothing to do with the situation. If I had infinite time to respond I might be able to think this through, but we are talking less than a second of reaction time here. Really? This is worth it to you?
As much as I am in favor of cyclists and I am in favor of bike paths and every other variant thereof I do not get the incentive to save 30 to 60 seconds dodging a traffic signal versus the cost of what happens if it all goes wrong and I don't think I ever will.
Downvote this at will. This thread had me on the verge of deleting my Hacker News account but then I found out you can't do that. So I am posting this final response to say that this is what I think and if someone won't hire me because I think this way I probably don't want to work for them.
As for that paramedic, he didn't start that way. There used to be this particularly obnoxious cyclist in his town that made a habit of flying through intersections and taking his hands off the handlebars and giving the fingers to all the cars he cut in front of. One day he got hit and broke his leg cursing the driver that hit him the whole time. Said paramedic was the one who took him to the hospital knowing exactly who he was and what he had been up to. I still think the guy was a Darwin award in the making and he probably died later on in life if he continued doing crap like this. If that makes me a despicable human being then I am a despicable human being.
Perhaps we've misunderstood each other. The impression I got from your post was that you believe harming or killing cyclists is acceptable if you perceive that they are breaking the law (regardless of whether the cyclist is actually breaking the law; see the examples I gave previously). Many drivers seem to believe that. If that's not what you believe then I apologize for misunderstanding you.
Add on top of that the belief of many drivers that their own law breaking is acceptable, speeding in particular. Speeding is a contributor to roughly 10,000 traffic fatalities per year while running red lights is a contributor in only 700-800. Speeding is clearly a bigger problem, yet cyclists in particular running red lights gets more attention than speeding. (Likely the vast majority of traffic fatalities from running red lights don't involve cyclists at all.) One of the points of my first post in this discussion was that speeding should also be seen as unacceptable, but many of the replies I received focused on how cyclists running red lights is unacceptable and that speeding is fine. In other words, many people missed the point.
Running traffic signals on the other hand is just plain stupid and self-centered no matter what you're piloting at the time.