You seem to have some misguided ideas about management that you first need to get rid of.

- Management isn't a "next step" for developers but an entirely different career path. You don't naturally progress into it, and no one owes it to you. It takes a whole new skill set and lots of deliberate work to make the switch.

- Like any other job title, "manager" isn't handed out based on seniority but skill. If you think it is "humiliating" to get managed by someone younger than you then you don't have the right mindset for the role to begin with.

From my experience these are both more true in tech than any other industry. Getting managed by someone younger than you, someone more junior than you, someone making less money than you etc. are all very common. If you can't get used to it then you are always going to have a bad time.

As for how to switch into it – it is very unlikely that anyone is going to hire you for a management position with zero experience. If you want to grow into it your best bet is to do so at your current company. First become a leader as an IC, someone who defines technical paths, does cross-team collaboration, clears up ambiguity and someone who junior teammates can generally look up to for guidance and inspiration. If you don't meet these requirements it's unlikely you will be able to succeed – both as a manager or as a staff+ engineer.

At first glance everything you have written (can't tolerate work, feel humiliated working with younger managers, stagnant in your job, no motivation, considering lying on your resume) comes across as massive red flags, and I'm not surprised that you aren't able to get ahead. My overall advice is to take some time for reflection and self improvement and then form a plan for yourself to get out of this rut.

  > If you think it is "humiliating" to get managed by someone younger than you then you don't have the right mindset for the role to begin with.

Granted, the industry seems to feed this, too.

For example, two former [younger] underlings occupy the next two spots up on my chain of command. It seems like I am constantly asked why I didn't move up or "get the promotion". I respond with "they do a better job of managing than I would do" or "I don't like meetings".

And the truth is, I was offered both spots at one time, but I knew what those jobs entailed: a lot of meetings, a lot of managing, and very little engineering. And I didn't want them.

Another truth is, and I'm 100% fine with this fact, is that they do a far better job than I would/could have done. They enjoy working with people, and I enjoy working with systems (although that's somewhat changing with age and I'm enjoying the people part a lot more). But they have 0% time to work on engineering duties.

Why don't you just say you were offered it and preferred not to?

It would strike me as an arrogant thing to say, especially when they're better at management than I am. It would feel like I was crapping upon their skills and abilities.

I was just suggesting you could be more up front that it wasn’t for you so you felt less judged, but you could still praise the people who ended up doing it!

Smart call. Good news spreads as well as bad news in any group of people.

"It takes a whole new skill set and lots of deliberate work to make the switch." This is very much true. Right now you are managing code. As a manager you'll be managing people, your managers, and in many projects. Managing people can be very difficult. You not only deal with the business day to day issues but you'll have to deal with some of the life problems of the people you manage. Some people love it and others dislike it. It's not a higher level of writing code. It's just different and requires new skills.

BTW, young managers can be at any level of the management structure. It's very possible that your new boss as a manager could be younger than you.

Speaking as someone with a decade as an engineer and another decade in management roles, I wholeheartedly agree with every single point here. I suggest reading The Manager's Path by Camille Fournier to better understand what the path to management (and beyond) looks like.

Sounds like gaslighting to me. The main thing the great resignation proved is that most managers can't manage and are morons.

The truth is that people are promoted to management based on "people" skills and ass-kissing.

I became a manager through the developer route, 6 years now since I started as an IC, spent 2 years doing that then got promoted to senior dev and then had a choice to become a manager after 3 years of being senior, then I took it.

It's rare to be a manager that can also code but it is possible.

> Like any other job title, "manager" isn't handed out based on seniority but skill.

Man, sounds like some serious coolaid drinking to me...

I'm fairly sure paxys meant "in the ideal scenario". It's good to assume that instead of helping perpetuate dysfunction by assuming the worse (them, not you).

Still true that it's not based on seniority, though. And there will generally be some kind of skill involved, even if its (eg) skill in the sleazier end of soft skills rather than skill in management per se.

> Management isn't a "next step" for developers but an entirely different career path. You don't naturally progress into it, and no one owes it to you. It takes a whole new skill set and lots of deliberate work to make the switch.

Really love this phrasing. It's so so true. It took me almost ten years to make the jump from when I decided its what I wanted to do (because at the time I was just a junior desktop support person). It has been worth it though.

I think being a Lead Engineer / Hands-on Engineering Manager is a natural progression path. It’s a bit like being a project manager and an engineer, so I think you’re being a bit harsh here. There’s plenty of paths forward. You can then move on to a staff engineer, principal engineer, and distinguished engineer or just CTO or founding engineer of a startup.

Tough love, OP, but heed those words.

> younger folks are above me. It feels undignified, humiliating at times.

I'm not sure becoming a manager would solve that, as there might still be younger people managing you. Even if you become CEO, shareholders and investors might be younger too. I think a better approach would be to discover first why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger.

The obvious solution is not to become a manager, but to become an 18-year-old.

We need more of this type of root cause analysis in our industry.

How do I get into your industry?

Root cause analysis, weren't you paying attention?

> why it bothers you so to be managed by someone younger.

The idea that when you grow up you go up in rank. And if you have younger people who are above you, and you have not moved up at all, then you feel like you’re not performing well.

I think this feeling is artificial and externally influenced. Some of us are made to do work. Others are made to oversee. They are both equal in rank. Just different set of skill.

I think this is the core of it. Good managers never feel like they “outrank” you, they make you feel like they operate in a broader context and allow you to do your best work.

I am management now, I only took this role because every time I trusted someone else to manage they let me down; but it really is just a different job, its not “superior” and using words like that to describe management is a huge part of the problem.

Indeed. The word superior comes from army ranking as in superior officer via chain of command.

And then there is the other word: subordinate.

Can your reports fire you?

At most companies your direct manager can't fire you either. They simply write reviews and escalate problems to upper management/executives/HR, who then decide whether to act on it or not.

Well, no but that's mainly because of asymmetric numbers.

If all reports of a manager complain to the managers manager, that manager will likely be reassigned or reprimanded in a similar manner to a manager and an IC.

Also I should note that in most of Europe (at least the parts I've worked in), a managers voice is just a louder voice in a room of other managers- and firing someone is something that is not done by an individual, it's a discussion with managers and HR.

It's not taken lightly to fire people, even in places that are "at will" (theoretically) like Denmark.

Depends on the company but I'd say in most small and medium-sized companies in the US, your manager can fire you without cause and be just fine with maybe some half-assed explanation if upper management asks questions.

Any of them can look for a new job at any time. That’s the reason for the saying: people don’t leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers.

Interesting. I never thought of managers as being a "higher rank" than those they are managing. Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company.

Ranking is about a hieararchy and where someone is positioned in it. Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy so it seems fair to say they are "higher rank". Whether that translates to real power or not depends on a lot of things. I think this discussion is conflating ranking and skill and these don't often correlate.

> Managers are just doing a particular job that needs to be done, like all of the other jobs in a company.

That particular job can fire you, in most cases. Our industry lives in a bubble compared to most other industries. Here a senior programmer can have as much power as the manager that is managing them. Especially in the case of staff/principal engineers.

> Managers are positioned higher in the hiearchy

What hierarchy? Are you talking about the org chart? I don't see that as a hierarchy in the sense I think it's being used here. It's just a description of who is managing who, not of "rank" in some sort of militaryesque sense. My manager is not my "superior". He's the person responsible for ensuring that everyone in his department is working in an aligned manner, and for ensuring that everyone has the fewest roadblocks possible.

> That particular job can fire you, in most cases.

Well, he can't, really. He can recommend that I be fired, and his recommendation carries a great deal of weight, but it's not his call. But ignoring that...

I don't see how that's very relevant. But perhaps I'm just being misled by the use of the term "rank". That implies a superiority of some sort to me, and that superiority doesn't exist. It's just a different job, is all.

It also implies that "manager" is a rung up on a ladder, and I don't think it is. It's a different job altogether, not an evolution of the job I have.

You seem to be attributing your personal view of the world to the word "rank", to be honest. It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.

> It's not about an individual's self worth or how you think companies to organize.

Well, I already confessed that I'm not sure what people mean by "rank" here. I know it's not related to self-worth (not sure why you think I did relate it to that). But if it's not related to the org chart, then I don't have a clue what people mean by it.

What does the rank/hierarchy mean to you in this context?

It's the org chart. The. org. chart.

I think we're talking past each other.

Do you approve your own leave or do they?

Except managers have more authority and higher bonuses, the definition of higher rank.

it is also about why are you there. Both friends and I have had manager that are decades younger than us. Wasn't really a problem. Depending what if you want to deal with meetings, C-Level people, or just develop software at your job.

Slightly tangential, but in the span of my career, when I have worked with young people, I have enjoyed it much more than old boss-stereotyped bosses.

I only once had a younger supervisor, and I preferred that much more than an old boss.

Is it just me? I have also had a friend tell me the same.

Of the two best managers I've ever had, one was ancient and the other was fresh out of college. It leads me to think that age is not terribly relevant to the issue.

I quit my last job mainly because my new manager was a few years younger than me. I found it got under my skin but dude was kind of annoying too lol.

Good managers don’t seek out the role for its own sake; they naturally become one. The best managers I’ve seen (and have had the pleasure of working with) were extremely talented ICs who got along really well with others, and naturally transitioned to management roles when their own projects became too big in scope to handle on their own.

The absolute worst managers I’ve seen (thankfully, none were my manager) only became managers because they were drawn to the power of the position. They had no other qualities that would have led to them assuming the role naturally. These people generally became managers by brownnosing their way into the role, or straight up lying about their previous work experience. Don’t do this.

So, how to become a good manager? It will happen naturally if you are an excellent IC at a place where your skills and contributions are recognized and valued. Sometimes excellent ICs are overlooked and undervalued; if that’s the case, find another team/company that actually recognizes your contributions. But most of the time, people just don’t have the skills/qualities to be manager material, and that’s fine too—there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a lifelong IC! I know many people who were great ICs, were promoted to management as a result, hated it, and went back to being hackers.

I think the best thing to do is to pay managers less than developers and also disqualify anyone who demands to be a manager, that removes all the folks doing it for the wrong incentives.

I know of a few managers that hate being a manager, and are not the best at it but they've done so because they needed the money.

We already do, the tech industry has a separate individual contributor path for a reason. Most middle managers below the VP level don't make more than the people they are managing. Engineers are very expensive.

That's one part. I think another part is that the power dynamics need to change. Managers should be servant leaders. Instead, I see so many managers abuse their power to enrich their own position.

> Good managers don’t seek out the role for its own sake;

Depends on what you mean by this, but I will disagree. I didn't naturally become a manager. I sought it out because I believed I could do it better than the managers I have. I believe I am a good manager - not a perfect one as I have made mistakes and I still have improvements to make. When I have left a couple of jobs to make the next step (team lead to manager to director), my employees were sad I was leaving - they told me that directly.

And I've found many times that doing it naturally is hard. Companies are resistant to promotion, even for great ICs. You often have to seek it out, unless you get lucky (or are the bad brown noser as you mentioned). It's hard work to get it, but I worked hard and got it.

I agree with the rest of your points though.

I'm in the exact same position as you, I get positive feedback on my management style but I'll be honest: I am paranoid that it's just people engaging in "people-pleasing", after all: there's no value to frustrating or being overly honest to your manager.

I think that's why I've had issues with management too, I've always seem them as doing a job that's different from mine, as in: we are the same level working on different areas. -- Whereas perhaps they seem themselves as superior.

Regardless: I really wish I could trust the feedback I get, I want to improve, I want to be the best, I will always fail in some area but I am completely blind to my faults since all I ever hear is praise.

I do not believe for one second that I'm worthy of such praise, I work hard for sure, but I don't doubt that my managers (whom I didn't enjoy working with) did also.

I hear you. It's very tough to get constructive criticism as a manager. I've found you generally force others to answer more than just "how am I doing", but specific situations "how did I handle that". You'll have to interpret their answers, because often your reports especially will not want to give full answers. But you can get closer over time as you build trust and when you take slight "negative" feedback that you take it well and you don't retaliate, than they will give more stronger, closer to the truth feedback.

Its a journey, for sure!

> as a result, hated it, and went back to being hackers.

How do you do this part? I know many ICs that have gone into management, hated it, and then felt "stuck" and unable to go back to being an IC.

I made this jump quite quickly in my career and for me it came down to having a genuine interest in the operations of the company, joining meetings that weren't directly related to my work just to get a better understanding/share my views. It wasn't long before I was offered the position when someone else was leaving.

Basically make yourself and your interest visible.

But ask yourself if it's what you genuinely want, as well. The work and the responsibilities are very different to what you're doing as a developer. Maybe you haven't made the "jump" simply because you don't want to? I know there's a theoretical ladder of progression "up the chain" but I don't know if it's true; they're simply different roles suited to different personalities. It's quite common to hear of developers who went into management only to regret it. There are other options, like tech lead etc. that could give you a position of working more in the overview side of things and that could put your experience to good use, while still remaining faithful to the interests you had that brought you into this worldiin the first place.

But definitely if you feel like you're stuck in a rut with your current company then _communicate that_ to someone already in management where you're at and brainstorm some ideas. If your company is healthy then they'll appreciate that and appreciate you and help you find an avenue to explore.

If they aren't receptive to that, then you might start considering if the problem is with yourself and your age or whatever you're suggesting now, or with the environment you're working in.

Best of luck to you!

> I made this jump quite quickly in my career and for me it came down to having a genuine interest in the operations of the company, joining meetings that weren't directly related to my work just to get a better understanding/share my views.

For anyone reading this, remember to understand the tightrope before walking it. Sharing your views is great, but only in the right context. Most people benefit from listening rather than talking early on.

If you're tired of being a programmer, then you're looking at changing your career. Management is one of the options for your new career, along with many others.

There is not a "natural progression" from being a programmer to being a manager. They are very different and distinct occupations.

> Can I leverage my experience (i think i have a lot..) to move into a management role when i don't have any job experience in that role?

Your programming experience does not translate into managerial experience. If you really want to get into management, you'd be well-advised to seek out training in that field no matter how experienced a programmer you are.

That said, once you have managerial chops, your programming experience has value. Not in terms of being a manager generally, but in terms of being a better manager of programmers. In other words, it's a value-add -- but you need to have the baseline value before there's something to add to.

Is being a manager better? Is it a raise you want? There may be other ways. I make more than my manager.

I've had great managers and I've worked with great software developers and while it certainly helps to be a great developer to be a great manager, some of the worst managers I've had were also great developers. You may have a different skillset. And I don't know that avoiding humiliation is the best motivation to want to be a manager.

As it stands now, I'm a self-employed contractor and that brings some of the upsides of being a manager. I am running my own small business, after all. Maybe that's worth considering? It's not without downsides, though, especially in a soft job market.

I've also been a developer for 15 years (I'm 40 and graduated late at 25) and feel some of your angst, though I think the traditional approach is to take up woodworking or try to start a brewery :-)

> Is being a manager better?

If a manager is higher on the totem pole, isn’t that by definition “better”?

No, not at all? It sounds like you have an implicit bias that "broader-scope" is "better". And/or "can wield more power" is "better". But those aren't better, only a role you might want for yourself, if what you want is to operate at a more abstract level or have power over people.

Yep, it’s the “can wield more power” is better. I’m biased in that way because to me if you fail when you don’t have a lot of power, the consequences are worse than when you fail as a CEO or some high level managerial position where you’re given golden handcuffs/parachutes.

In other words, to me it feels like an IC can “fail down” but managers/directors/c-suites only seem to “fail up” - hence, better. I also think managers make way more than an IC, as they are a “level above” in the org structure.

I’m happy to change my bias, but I haven’t seen any evidence to the contrary.

I got my first management job because they needed a manager for a new team and I was already taking on and managing that new teams responsibilities in my current role.

I've promoted quite a few people into Team Lead and Manager roles and it was ALWAYS the person that was currently already leading, mentoring and making my problems go away.

Same with how do you get to be "Senior Engineer" or "Architect" ... do the job first.

It sounds like you just want a change of scenery and the prestige the title gives you, I don't even know if that will make you happy.

+1 to this. It is how I got “promoted”. And I am hesitant to call it a promotion, it is more like an entirely different job role compared to being an IC.

Sounds like you really want out of your current situation. And "promoted to management" is the only exit you can see, without heavy financial penalties or social stigma.

I don't get the sense that you have any actual interest in studying or doing management.

I want to be a manager as well, and I haven’t had any opportunities to become one. I’m often a go-to but I haven’t been able to go one rung up to management, either because there are already people with management experience so I get passed up, or I joined a team that recently got a new manager. Either way, I’m not seeing any opportunities and it’s extremely maddening.

So if I can study my way into management, I’d love to know more about it. Simply getting a masters or an MBA shouldn’t cut it, because it’s just theory and not real experience, right?

As someone who fought 10 years to get it, it's not easy. Best way is to find a situation where you can be promoted internally, at least to a team lead. Make it clear to your boss that's what you want to do, and hopefully he or she will listen and you'll get lucky. Alternatively work in your current position to get some experience that could lead to a team lead position (project management, coaching, 1 on 1's leading discussions, etc), and start applying for them.

Yep, unhealthy interest in personal status rather than in the health and success of the team.

Which would make for a terrible manager.

I'm a couple years away from 50, and "stuck as a developer" and it's fine, and having "young people above me" is no concern. They're team-mates and sometimes friends.

If I eventally make the switch to management, it would be because I got less interested sofware systems and more in team systems.

!(manager > engineer). Just different.

this is the case for most managers, unfortunately, and this is what is destroying the industry. These are the people who will manage people and have no clue how people operate, most causes of burnout that I have seen come from managers that don't care about people, they just push tasks and see people as resources.

The first step I always think that is being honestly concerned and caring about people and making them the best that they can be without toxic behavior and then balance it with company expectations and project management skills.

Folks complain that this is too much to learn, but this is the reason why managers get paid more. Not the case in the real world, unfortunately

In the military a Lieutenant fresh off West Point will be younger than the Sergeant Major who has been in the military for 20 years.

Do you think the Sergeant thinks he's "inferior" or is "humiliated" by the Lieutenant being younger?

In hospitals many nurses have worked there for longer than the freshly graduated Doctor has been out of diapers.

Do the nurses feel humiliated or inferior?

---

People have different areas of expertise, that doesn't make anyone else inferior.

My boss is a woman who's younger than me, but she's fucking amazing at managing projects and keeping developers focused.

I don't feel inferior or humiliated, her expertise is in project management, mine is in software development and infrastructure. The skills are complementary.

I also have a coworker who's barely over 20 and they are a damn wizard with Unity, which I know only the bare minimum of. I'm not humiliated by that either.

I really think you would benefit from talking to a professional about how you see yourself, those kind of feelings aren't healthy and won't be fixed by you "becoming a manager" (which is usually just a ton of stress and managing humans, which is even more stress).

I was in almost your exact same situation about 8 years ago. What I did was start looking for leadership positions outside of work. I became a CrossFit trainer, president of my HOA, and for a short while started my own business.

A friend of mine offered me an opportunity to lead a small team at a start-up, and I joined even though I made less money. I actually went back to being an IC after a few years because I didn't like managing at that company, but a few years after that, I had the chance to manage a team while the director was on paternity leave and I really enjoyed it. By that time, I'd read enough and had enough experience to get hired as a manager. So I changed jobs to manage a team full time and have enjoyed it since.

Good luck on your quest.

Use your current job, if you’re actively hunting already! I don’t mean try to be a manager there - I mean, get their feedback on why they haven’t already made you a manager in your next 1:1.

Your boss may not know you want it, or they know you want it and can provide insight on what you have to do to get there.

I'll second/third this. When I was interested in becoming a manager, I talked to my manager about it and developed a long term plan to make the transition. This included stuff like going through internal company courses on management and incrementally taking on management-type responsibilities and tasks. I ended up changing my mind, but I'd say your manager can be a good resource for making that transition.

Definitely worth chatting with your manager. Sometimes an internal move is all it takes get on a career path you are excited about

I've mentored many developers at this stage in their career - it's a challenging leap to make, because your moving from a world where improving your technical skills moves you forward to a world where you need to improve your soft skills to progress.

Some general advice that may prove helpful:

- Read "The managers path" by Camille Fournier. It's an excellent and very readable guide, with great advice at any stage of your career. - Be aware of the difference between "People Management" and "Technical leadership" and know which direction you want to head in. Some companies merge the two roles to a greater or lesser extent. Others clearly define and seperate them. - Look for opportunities to mentor others, particularly grads or juniors. Mentoring is often the first step on a path to leadership or management. - Leadership means being responsible for the success of a team, not just your own work. Look for opportunities to step up, take ownership and be responsible for your whole teams success. - Find a mentor and meet with them at least once a fortnight for at least half an hour. Come to each meeting prepared with a list of things you would like to get their perspective on.

Lastly DO NOT lie on your resume. Lying would be a really great way to land up in a position where you don't have the support you need to succeed. It's fine to be up front and say "I've been static for a long time in my current job without opportunities for promotion. I'm keen to find a role where I can be mentored and grow into a manager and leader"

Previous manager: she was a bad developer for 1-2 years, people wanted her out of the project, management proposed her a management position in front of the customer (pretty face, blonde hair, meetings all day, talk nice to people no matter how dumb they are). Even she was shocked that she was proposed for the job.

Another manager: quickly pushed up and enter in a terminal, deleted production database. He "decided" he really wants to be a manager. Probably management didn't want him on the project anymore but at least he understood some tehnical stuff so they kept him.

These are self-reported stories. Beer is magic.

The usual path is that you become friends with whoever decides to name new managers. Say yes to every stupid thing they say, act both surprised 6 months later when it fails and so on. I don't know why people are afraid of saying it as it is. It's funny how developers think that all you need to do is just learn one more thing. It's not. When my manager's manager came to town, he made sure he is 100% available to go to dinner and drinks and so on. That's what you need to do. Call wife, send kid away, you need to be seen by your manager at drinks...

Management isn’t a promotion, it’s a different job, and being “stuck” as an IC shouldn’t be a thing. There’s nothing wrong with staying on the IC track forever and getting promotions rather than changing to management.

You say that there are no promotion opportunities, but have you talked to your EM about the gaps to the next IC level for you?

Hope I'm not being too much of an internet psychoanalyst here, but...

Couldn't agree more.

I think there's this perception from legacy engineering companies that a career track is a single line transitioning from IC to management, with some overlap defined by either pay grade or prestige (or both) between the seniors from IC and the juniors from management. This might be the source of OP's feelings of frustration.

I just crested the 10-year mark on my career and one of the things I try to sniff out in interviews is whether there's a genuinely workable long-term IC track which doesn't just fold into management, cause seniority in management in my experience is directly proportional to the number of hours you spend in meetings every week, and that's reaaally not for me.

@OP: perhaps you could go into more detail about why you feel unhappy being an IC to younger managers? I get that there's the accountability structure aspect of it, but it sounds like you're frustrated because they're younger despite them being in an orthogonal career track. Are the managers you dislike incompetent?

Even if there is an IC track, how viable is it. while management competition is stiff, there still tends to be more opportunities up top than engineers. Sure I could be CTO, but below the CTO there are not many high level engineers before you get to the standard level. There are a lot more opportunities to move up in management. Of course CTO is itself a management job that gives you a little time to look at something technical, and most of the high level technical positions under that are likewise more people jobs than technical.

This might help people sleep at night, but it's incorrect. Managers have more pay, more direct reports and more responsibility. It's the definition of a promotion.

There are upper technical people who don't have direct reports, but have more pay and responsibility. However there are a lot more in management than those positions in most companies.

I am an IC and I outlevel my manager and probably make more than my skip who is at the same level (I have some significant extra performance bonus equity grants), so no.

Obviously managers have more direct reports, the definition of an IC is that they have zero direct reports, besides maybe a temporary intern.

At any competent tech company, moving to management results in no immediate change to compensation. It is a transition, not a promotion.

At a seed-stage startup I was paid more than the CEO, and technical founder. High-value IC's absolutely can be paid more. I had plenty of responsibility, but it was in the systems not people.

Just saw your comment after I added mine. There is too much gaslighting about management and what the role is.

Not true in tech companies , eng usually has an equivalent career ladder up to VP level with same pay bands

So much gaslighting. It's a new role with more responsibility, more power and a higher salary or bonus. The definition of a promotion.

Actually, the right question to ask is "what kind of manager would you like to be?"

Management comes in two flavors :

* technical management (think "architect" or "lead dev") is about expertise, experience, higher technical vision. You surely have some points to make here, not because you know the last tech fad, but because you know that every fad will fade in 6 or 12 months, and that only good engineering last

* team management is a COMPLETLY different beast: you won't work on code but you will work on humans and how to help them to fulfill their mission in the company. It's about psychology, finance, sociology, politics... Think budget, reporting, forecasting... It's really interesting too but has nothing to do with development. If that's your interest (and it's a real focus change), then you can leverage every experience as a technical team leader on some part of system, and show how you improve THE TEAM (and how that improvement lead to a PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT)

Be very cautious: you should consider this as a career change. A lot of bad managers are managers that went down this road for wrong reasons (money, status...) and not because they want to develop the human side of corporation

A few thoughts:

Look for opportunities to take on roles if there is volatility. I moved into management when our current manager left and I volunteered to be an interim manager. I did well and they moved me into the position permanently. You may want to consider changing jobs. If current management does not see you as management material, it may be that you’ve been there too long. It’s very difficult to change people’s perception of you rather than creating a new first impression.

Dress for the position you want. Perception is (almost) everything. Dress like the managers do (if they dress nicer than everyone else). In general, dress just a little bit nicer than everyone else. If everyone wears t-shirts, wear a collared shirt. If everyone wears collared shirts, wear a blazer. If you look like manager but aren’t, people will ask whether you’re a manager. You’re halfway there if people suspect you’re a manager. If you don’t look like a manager, people won’t see you as a manager, both literally and figuratively.

Act like a manager by always following up on items, especially with your managers. Don’t let anything fall through the cracks. Your manager should never, ever have to check back with you on something they asked you to look into. Even if it can’t be done, make sure that you’re the one that follows up on it with them. Follow-up with coworkers on items you’ve asked them to do. Don’t be afraid to pester people. Send emails asking, “Any update on this?” Find a way to track all these things. Keeping track and following up is critical. Record and transcribe meetings with supervisors to make sure nothing falls through the cracks.

Improve your social skills. Learn public speaking if necessary so that you can sound confident in front of people.

I hate to hijack this thread. But I hope this is still useful for decision-making/informative for OP. For folks out there who are ex-programmers and didn't love the corporate grind anymore... what other exit strategies did you guys pursue (besides going into management)?

I'll start. I felt like OP maybe about ~7 years ago. I hated the grind of learning and re-learning frameworks, ageism etc. I pivoted into data science for my day-job because I found it more interesting (and to do something more meaningful particularly if you're doing something related to research/public healthy/policy etc.). On the side, I also started applying my coding skills to option trading and making my own trading bots (where I re-gained a lot of my enthusiasm for coding back without the grind of agile and coding for myself and just for fun). I'm happier (and financially better off) today and my only regret is I didn't start sooner. Hope to hear more from others who exited coding monkey careers!

Don't a lot of developers get stuck at this point? Or reach this cross-roads. Many corporations do not have a technical ladder, there is only so high one can go doing technical work. Thus one is forced into management, or maybe out.

If it is money, then move companies. Companies don't give good raises internally, the way to money is moving companies. I've seen and experienced this many times.

So, switch around companies, then you'll be learning new tech, meeting new people, getting more money. Possibly get excited about doing something again.

The way you phrase it, it sounds like what you really need is some kind of life and maybe career advice, something that needs more context than the few lines you've written here.

Maybe it would help to talk somebody a bit older? Do you have maybe a family friend or so that you could talk?

There are also professional coaching available, which you might consider before a somewhat big career change.

Be sure you want to become a manager.

(As a CTO coach, I'd say book a coach but ...)

Tell your boss. If they don't know there is no chance to be promoted. Ask what it takes to be promoted.

Know the boss of your boss. Only they can promote you to the same level as your boss. Your boss usually can't (Most important promotion tip).

Try to get some management into your job title for no salary increase. This makes it easier to switch jobs and be hired into a management role.

Try to become co-founder (CTO) in a small startup.

Found a startup on your own, easiest way to get the CTO title. Build for one year, close the startup if it doesn't work.

> Every day is mental pain as I get older and younger folks are above me. It feels undignified, humiliating at times.

This is transitory. I get it, but it only stings now because you're not that old yet, so you feel you should be in that fight. A few years more and it's typical for the manager to be younger, nobody has the population pyramid for seniority promotions anymore.

It helps to get somewhat out of the ladder and go freelance or similar. It ends up being very very similar, but in your head you're on a different track.

Were you a team lead or squad lead? That’s a form of management experience. Were you a mentor for junior employees even if not a team lead? That’s another (weaker) form.

If your company has a need for squad/team leads, take one of those spots and try it out. You may very well find that you hate that more than whatever is bugging you now.

(I’m hoping to “retire” from management someday and go back to SWE3 type of coding. Grass is always greener and all that.)

My belief: If you’re burned out on engineering, switching to management probably won’t fix it.

> Every day is mental pain as I get older and younger folks are above me. It feels undignified, humiliating at times.

Age is not a rank. If people younger than you are better at delivering value than you then they should be above you, and rightfully so.

Moreso if they outwork you.

You should get with the program and work on being at peace that other people around you can and often are better than you at something.

If you're hoping to become a manager so that you can abuse your position to keep others down, you definitely are not cut out to be a manager.

My perspective on this:

Starting your own side business to get the living expenses covered and then quitting and rolling a one man company.

Perhaps it's not being the manager that you want, but to control your own destiny? Being a manager will just lock you in even more.

Also no more need to drive 70km!

Some thoughts for you:

Leadership is a taught skill. Start learning.

If you want to get promoted, your current company has sent you a strong message... it is up to you to listen to it and understand it.

Personally, I've stayed on the technical side of the house, no regrets. As a Principal Software Engineer... you'd have to pay quite a bit for me as a lead.

That said, I have led teams, and enjoy it.

I recommend the following books to anyone interested in leadership: And if you are a Senior looking to go to Principal, you are.

- Getting to Yes.

- Difficult Conversations.

Now I also recommend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

The last video seems odd... until you realize it is how power works.

Think about why your manager has power, etc... Why odd things happen. And that video often explains it.

Good luck. Maybe it is time to pump the brakes on the car, or turn. Just some advice.

Leaders lead no matter what their job title is. If you think being a manager is what is needed to command respect then I think your view of leadership is skewed and you are only going to be authoritarian. If you want to grow focus on the outcomes you are achieving, engaging directly with the outcomes of the business and accelerating those is the way to get ahead. Frequently I see engineers who believe their work is to write code, this is not the right mental model, great engineers solve business problems through engineering, process design and at times simply through leadership and saying no. Ticket monkeys whose job is to code what is on a jira ticket and nothing but that, are limited in their use.

As others have said here, but I’ll try being more explicit: do you want to manage or do you want more money/respect?

Your career path's details are crucial to understand your struggles. It seems like you may be confusing the role of a manager—it's more people-focused than technical. If younger superiors bother you, it could indicate a lack of maturity. Feeling "humiliated" suggests self-doubt/self-worth issues. I also question why you want the role so badly? Pay? Recognition? There are other roles higher in tech leadership than just manager.

Accepting a management position likely won't make the feelings you have disappear. You may not even like the day-to-day job of managing more than being a engineer, and there will still be people younger than you are higher than you on the totem pole. There is always a bigger fish.

Solve the "no motivation for the interview process" problem, and you may find that a change in scenery can fix the rest of the problems you are experiencing.

Idk. I consider myself a pretty good engineer (received exceeds expectations / max rating at every company I’ve worked at) and I made the salary cap for my level at each level. I make more than EMs.

When I tried being a manager I was told that they felt the team slacking without me doing the heavy lifting just 6 months in.. so I went back to being a team lead.

I’ll be honest out of a dozen plus managers in my career only 3 stand out as memorable. 2 of them are among my best friends today. Everyone else was forgettable at best or incompetent, but they got me my money which I care about more.

Now I’m starting my own company. There’s no challenge left for me technically speaking because I want a challenge that I can’t figure out easily.

Don’t worry too much about being managed by younger people or whatever. Who cares.

If you are working for someone else, and you do not have significant equity (99% chance you won’t - even getting 1-2x salary in RSU isn’t significant imo when we are talking about 1 trillion plus market cap)… just get the max money you can and enjoy life.

Stressing about this is a waste of energy. Trust me.

> Every day is mental pain as I get older and younger folks are above me.

Wait until you feel the pain of dealing with behavior / emotional problems of people.

A lot of times, and it's less true for tech, but companies see you as not much more than what they hired you at. 6 years at the same company probably isn't going to help. It might be better to switch companies and in the interview process mention that you want to transition to management.

Also managers aren't really above you, and if you have this feeling then you might not make a good manager.

I neither see a drive towards results nor an interest in leading others. Not saying that you do not have it but it is lacking in your post and is an absolute requirement in my book. I once had to promote the most junior team member, beg him to become manager as the technically competent one was lacking and never once brought up team related issues during my discussions with him. Also be sure you really want that - management is often being sandwiched and gets no thanks from both sides. Also the buck tends to stop with you so any gaps others in you team leave are your headache. Be very sure that you want it. Are you going to be happy to focus on results and people. Are you able to maintain a reasonable level of happiness in your team? Based on how you express yourself you might be a bit depressed which is an awful starting position to get a promotion. Finding a therapist may help changing your view on job, interactions and if it happens transition in a new and emotionally more demanding job.

Do you know what a manager does? Why do you think you’d enjoy/be good at that type of work?

Or is it more that you don’t want to be a developer?

> It feels undignified, humiliating at times.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation and I know that feeling very well. But it's something that I suspect happens to all of us as we grow older. The fact is, that younger people exist. It might happen that they will be your boss, it might happen that you will be the boss of them, or a combination of both. But it should never feel undignified and humiliating just because of their age alone.

There are other facts about relationships with people that you should be more sensitive about: Do they treat you with respect? Do they listen to you? Do they tell you the truth? Will they help you when you need it?

It can be difficult, but I would start a deep introspection about this subject.

What it helps me to overcome this feelings is the fact that I internalized the thought "my job is not my life". There are activities I pursue outside my job that define me much better as a person and in that domain, I'm my own boss.

I deeply love the idea that management is like the retirement home for developers after you've burnt out. You've put in your time, and now it's time to just sit back, "manage", and do sweet FA.

I mean... for a LOT of management, that's entirely true.

but you really need to dream bigger!

It depends on if you actually want to be a manager. It involves a lot less technical work and a lot of people work. Many people are not happy with management once they try it (but that's not to say you shouldn't try, because maybe you'd love it!) I have met many people who were managers but hated it and went back to IC's.

So if management is not for you, the other option is the architect path.

In either case, your company sounds like they are not for you - but then, you should also ask! If they say no, start looking for other places. A team lead is a great start into management. Because you can still do technical work but start to learn the management/leadership side. You just have to think about your last 15 years and the leadership you've done - big projects are a great example.

Why did you become a developer? Why do you want to be a manager? Why do you object to working for someone younger? Do you object to working for women? What about people from other countries? And if you become a manager and one of your younger reports is promoted to a higher position than you? All of these things can and will happen. As a retired manager, who had managers far younger than some of their staff members, and developers with 40+ years of experience, I have some trouble relating to your perspective.

Eh, I'm a midlevel with 11 years experience. I haven't been promoted in about 9 years. I don't mind seeing younger people above me as long as they deserve it, even if they might not be at that level of capability yet.

We have a new college grad who has been at the company for about 18 months. They're going to make him our team's tech lead. He's a sharp kid, so I'm happy for him. I'm more baffled by management putting someone so green into that role. There's a lot of design experience and organizational structure/culture they don't know.

At least my current managers aren't malicious. But there are some strategy and political issues above them that I'm not happy about.

Start with changing your job to an environment where you could make an impact. Then start making an impact - take ownership of your work, help coworkers who get stuck/hung up on a problem, be active in planning sessions, communicate your thoughts and worries openly, push stalled tasks forward, etc... That usually gets noticed pretty fast.

Nobody will notice, reward or promote some guy sitting in some corner, feeling sorry for himself. Being a good manager means helping your team, shield it from the everyday crap flying around, fighting for answers, resources, helping people to deal with hard situations in life (divorce, health problems, death). You need to be actively involved in your work - and that's exactly what you're having problems with ATM.

Are there architect positions available? To me that seems like a good route that maintains more technical involvement while moving away from feeling like a code monkey. It's still a leap from development, but it seems like there's more overlap than with management.

Do not outright lie on your resume.

You may have relevant experience for management even if you aren't a manager. Think hard about what your qualities are and how they make you suitable for this kind of work. Maybe take some management courses. If you really want to do it, let your managers know you are interested in pursuing this and ask for opportunities to grow into that type of position.

I also echo what others are saying in this thread. I don't get any sense you actually want to be a manager. You are just sick of what you are currently doing. As you get older there will be younger people in more senior positions than you. That should not be a problem for you, it will always be the case, and increasingly as you get older.

It could be the culture that is the problem. Good managers are very accommodating to people of all ages & races. It's tricky to advise without knowing what the hierarchy looks like in your company.

I see some problems, though - why are there no promotion opportunities? Why were you, not promoted & younger people hired from outside? Did you had any discussions with senior management yet & did they give you any feedback?

Usually, mid-size to large tech companies have two career paths. Engineer to Principal OR Engineer to Engineering Manager. Some firms have people like technical leads. First, you want to decide on what path to choose. Both are quite different.

Sounds like to you need to find something you are fascinated by and excited to dive into without worrying about things like promotions, your age or the age of other people around you, your dignity, and other things that actually don't matter at all.

When you do find something like that life is joy and you can also become incredibly successful. Maybe management is that thing, but validate that you are really motivated for it and excited for all the hard work it will undoubtedly create for you. Or maybe it's something different.

If you're not sure, try many things, or ask yourself what would that thing be if it wasn't "work".

I have found that you will never win the comparison game. With age you get the wisdom that someone will always be younger or smarter or more successful or all these things at the same time. It’s not a game anymore when you don’t enjoy playing it. Find something else that motivates you, if that’s management go for it. I would suggest you don’t need to lie in your cv. Just focus on the management related activities you perform and be explicit that you want to build on these skills further while maintaining a hands on role. Plenty of organisations look for hands on managers and you are on a good footing to do that.

That sounds stressful.

There's a short book I like called The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday that talks about dealing with adversity like this.

The secret is to take full responsibility for your situation. Nobody will be more invested in your success than you are.

Ask yourself - why do you feel stagnant, and what can you do about it?

For example, talking to your manager about it, making a plan and working toward a promotion as an IC, taking over a struggling project and leading it to success, or transitioning into leading a team.

If it's changing jobs, take responsibility for understanding your goals and finding a role that fits.

And don't lie, that stuff catches up to you.

As a manager you have the responsibility of achieving some goal through other people. Have you tried this before, or always worked on individual tasks? If you haven't tried it, I bet there is some managerial responsibility you can pick up TODAY in your team which your engineering manager / team lead doesn't have time for, and which would help you both learn about management and your aptitude for it. Such proactivity might also get you promoted if you decide to stick with development, who knows?

Start a side-project SaaS, incorporate as an LLC, hire some contractors in India. It doesn't have to make money. After a year put it on your resume as managerial experience.

You can not - not enough spots. People telling that management is not a "next step" while not lying are just not telling the truth. Management is a big club and you ain't in it. Basically everyone can be manager despite the fact saying otherwise. However developers are rare. Thus it is counterproductive to promote programmers. You can perhaps leverage your experience by moving to another company to a management position directly.

One thing I’ve heard others do is they look at the next job they want to have, work with those people, and then, put what you did with those people on your resume. And then in the back of your head keep thinking what you might do differently. Some of the more hungrier folks just shamelessly claim the next levels wins as their own on their resume and speak to those. Not saying you should do any of this but this is just what I’ve seen. Good luck.

Don’t lie!

Also being a team-leader type manager I think is more cognitively demanding because you need to keep track and be able to understand what 5 or so other people are doing, while reporting up too.

Being a VPEngineering type is a completely different skillset. Less technical but lots of new skills to learn. You would be expected to make things excellent but with little guidance.

You must decide if you want your career path to be a manager or a technologist. In most cases, there is valid career growth in either path but they are different paths because there are fundamentally different skill sets and inclinations involved. It is important to take a brutally honest introspective look at yourself to determine what you enjoy about your career and what motivates you.

Then, if you still really want to change to the managerial path, you must again be brutally honest with yourself as you try to figure out why that has not yet been an option. Usually a technologist starts to get opportunities to make this choice at between 5 and 10 YOE. It might be that you unintentionally are signaling to your management that your preference is to be a technologist either because of personality characteristics (your objection to being managed by those younger than you is a potential problem area) or obviously deep focus on technology. Figure out what is blocking you and fix it.

I understand where you are coming from with regard to being managed by those younger than you but take it from a technologist with over 30 years of experience, being a manager is not a function of seniority but of talent. As I mentioned before, management involves a different set of skills. You must evaluate managers for their talent at the activity and remove your bias based on their age. You may find that working for a young manager sometimes gives you the opportunity to lead and mentor them and help them become a better manager.

As others have mentioned, if you really want to move to the management path, you must communicate to others that is what you want. You do this explicitly by telling them and you do this implicitly by demonstrating interest and focusing on your behaviors.

Finally, I’ve noticed that it is very common for people to think that a natural and expected career progression goes from low-level worker to worker to leader to manager to director, VP and CEO. In technology, this is not the only case. Senior technologists are valuable stores of information and capability and there is a valid career progression for them which goes: low-level worker to worker to leader to senior and principal technologist to fellow to CTO. You still get leadership responsibilities but you don’t have the administrative responsibilities. It is important to note that your authority, in this circumstance, comes from a reputation for being knowledgeable and smart (influence), not from position.

I fell into management because my boss moved overseas to set up a new team and I was asked to ‘supervise’ the team left behind. No pay rise, no title change but extra reporting responsibilities with a weekly evening phone call. A year later my boss pressured the CEO to give me a title, an office and send me on a 1 day management training course. The pay rise eventually came through another 6 months later.

> No motivation for the interview process.

Sounds like a 3 months sabbatical is due?

Cynically speaking: You need to chase the opportunity you want. Also if that requires you to leave your current place. Being motivated to do that is important.

I would probably take 3 months in your situation. Do things you like, exit your comfort zone in non-work related matters.

A person with 15 years of experience looking for a management position has relevant experience to apply for a management role. Start the conversation or apply! You may want to take time to understand and learn what's required to become a good manager. Also, you shouldn't be ashamed of ageing. Good luck!

There should be no shame in younger people above ourselves. I am 46 and a coupple of years ago the CEO and CTO of the company I worked for were in their twenties. It did not bother me at all. If they do their jobs properly, it is fine at any age. If they dont do their jobs properly, it is not fine at any age.

Don't 'LIE'. But also, don't be a typical programmer and think of it as binary, and split hairs.

Take a more sales/marketing focus and 'embellish'. After 15 years, I'm sure there have been 'leadership' moments, leading a project, organizing some group task.

Cannot emotionally connect. I have never once wanted to be a manager. It's a chore that I don't want.

Learning the skills is a beginning. Take notes during meetings, share them with the group. Engage your manager in planning, through questions or adding information. Give considerate feedback.

I understand the need for growth and advancement, but I'm not sure if changing roles would address your concerns. I also think your other motivations for becoming a manager might just make you a bad one.

Have you tried changing your work environment, team, or domain first instead?

Seems like you must be really good at your developer job, otherwise you would get promoted. :)

You might want to move into a more mentorship role where younger developers have to look up to you.

Being a project manager is more about handling politics and trying to carve out a viable way forward.

I heard there is a PMP certification or something.

With the reasons you listed why you'd want to become a manager, be careful what you wish for

You will never get promoted and will never get hired without experience. It's rigged because management roles are reserved for narcissists and psychopaths.

If you are not a sycophant and a yes-man you will fail as a manager because you will be pushed out.

This whole industry is toxic, from hiring to constantly reinventing the wheel and to the daily work.

It could be that your current job or organization isn't growing so they won't need more managers.

If that's the case, you need to work for a company that is growing, therefore, opening positions for management. You've mentioned you aren't even motivated to the interview process, so I can tell you for sure you aren't cut for it, at the moment. If it is your hearts utmost desire to become a manager, first you need to work on those thoughts.

Management is a completely different job from a software engineer. It definitely helps to have a lot of engineering knowledge for the context, but your day-to-day activities will be absolutely different from an IC. The emotional state that you've shared on your post really reminds me of an IC, that can likely perform their daily tasks, but won't be able to hold a team together, being lighthearted and caring, also talking about tough subjects with self-awareness.

I'd advise you getting a psychologist and go over and try to figure out why you haven't become a manager yet, and why do you believe you need it, then start working on becoming one.

I for instance, became a manager again after going through therapy and recovering from a big emotional problem (my mother was everything to me, and passed away, and I was a continent far away), it took years and only after that I could see myself having the mental space to deal with other people's problems and desires, which is the main activity you do as a manager.

Also read many books, participated in conferences, made connections, got inspired and so on. That eventually led me to lead a team.

I really doubt the old me could deal with the daily challenges I deal everyday, people dissatisfied, back-to-back meetings etc. I first had to clear up my mind, study to finally arrive in a situation where I could manage others.

Also, by working in tech you've probably also felt how different it is to be led by different people. Some people are ABSOLUTELLY GOOD, others are a pain to work with.

First start writing down and working on those qualities that makes up a good manager to work with. Copy them. Tell them you want to become like them, reach out to them if you no longer work in the same company and tell how they were so good and how you can learn with them.

People are typically very friendly on those requests, and if they see have inspired you in a way, they will be gladly help you and that will help you grow.

Also don't forget you don't need to do this overnight. There are people coding at 60 that are awesome.

FAANG companies also pay much more for senior developers than most directors make in smaller companies. You actually don't need to become a manager to make more money or have more recognition, if that's what you are looking for.

And to be honest, it is very likely that you are enough being just yourself, Today. Don't feel pressured about it. Managers aren't superior in any way, it is just a job, a task that is performed, just like goats climb mountains and birds fly.

Wish you success in your journey!